Are Redshifts Used to Specify Locations in Cosmology?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of redshifts in cosmology, specifically whether redshifts can be used to specify locations in spacetime. Participants explore how redshift relates to distance and time, and the implications of using redshift as a measure in cosmological observations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that redshift indicates location in spacetime and is preferred over distance or time due to its direct observability and dependence on uncertain cosmological parameters.
  • There is a proposal that the relationship between redshift and distance can be understood through Hubble's law, with equations relating velocity, distance, and redshift.
  • Concerns are raised about the variability of redshifts due to local galaxy motions, particularly for nearby galaxies, which complicates their use as distance measures.
  • Participants note that the expansion rate of the universe changes over time, which affects the accuracy of using redshift to determine distance, especially for light that has traveled over long periods.
  • One participant points out that the equations used to relate redshift and distance are approximations that hold primarily for low redshift values, and discrepancies arise at higher redshifts.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of using a constant value for the expansion rate (H) in calculations, suggesting that this may lead to inaccuracies for objects with significant redshifts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the reliability of using redshift as a distance measure, with some agreeing on its utility while others highlight significant limitations and uncertainties. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to relate redshift to distance in cosmology.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the assumptions made in using redshift for distance measurements, including the dependence on the constancy of the expansion rate and the effects of local galaxy motions.

center o bass
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I have heard cosmologists use the phrase "at redshift", presumably indicating the location of something. Are redsifts used to specify locations in cosmology, and if so, how is that done?
 
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The redshift basically indicates location, yes, if you interpret that as "location in spacetime". The reason cosmologists give the redshift instead of a distance (e.g., "1 billion light-years away") or a time (e.g., "1 billion years ago") is that the redshift is what we actually observe, and how it translates into a distance or a time depends on other cosmological parameters whose values we haven't necessarily pinned down. So rather than have to specify which particular values of all those parameters are being assumed when a distance or a time is given based on an observed redshift, cosmologists just give the observed redshift directly.
 
PeterDonis said:
The redshift basically indicates location, yes, if you interpret that as "location in spacetime". The reason cosmologists give the redshift instead of a distance (e.g., "1 billion light-years away") or a time (e.g., "1 billion years ago") is that the redshift is what we actually observe, and how it translates into a distance or a time depends on other cosmological parameters whose values we haven't necessarily pinned down. So rather than have to specify which particular values of all those parameters are being assumed when a distance or a time is given based on an observed redshift, cosmologists just give the observed redshift directly.

Is this idea based on Hubbles law? I.e. that ##v = H d## where v is the velocity of a galaxy and d is it's distance from us? Using that
$$v/c :=z = (\lambda - \lambda_0)/\lambda_0 = d/H$$
we see that given the redshift ##z##, we can determine ##d##. Is this the basic idea?
 
center o bass said:
Is this idea based on Hubbles law? I.e. that ##v = H d## where v is the velocity of a galaxy and d is it's distance from us? Using that
$$v/c :=z = (\lambda - \lambda_0)/\lambda_0 = d/H$$
we see that given the redshift ##z##, we can determine ##d##. Is this the basic idea?
Essentially, yes.

It's worth noting that the local motions of galaxies can cause their redshifts to vary by as much as about ##\pm##0.003 from this value. For far-away galaxies, this is inconsequential. But for nearby galaxies, the redshift can't reasonably be used as a distance measure due to this uncertainty.
 
center o bass said:
Is this the basic idea?

Yes, but the expansion rate of the universe (which is what ##H## refers to) changes with time, and we don't know how, exactly, it changes with time.
 
PeterDonis said:
Yes, but the expansion rate of the universe (which is what ##H## refers to) changes with time, and we don't know how, exactly, it changes with time.

Indeed, but it does not change as fast that ##d = H z## will be significantly tomorrow (or next year) from what it was today?
 
center o bass said:
Is this idea based on Hubbles law? I.e. that ##v = H d## where v is the velocity of a galaxy and d is it's distance from us? Using that
$$v/c :=z = (\lambda - \lambda_0)/\lambda_0 = d/H$$
we see that given the redshift ##z##, we can determine ##d##. Is this the basic idea?

Note that the equation that you have used is approximate and only holds for low z (z << 1). Using H0 = 67.9 km s-1 Mpc-1, z=1 represents a recession speed of 0.77c (231,000 km/s) and a proper distance of 11 billion light years (3.8 Mpc), which you can see do not quite fit the equation.
 
center o bass said:
Indeed, but it does not change as fast that ##d = H z## will be significantly tomorrow (or next year) from what it was today?

It's not a question of how fast ##H## is changing right now. It's a question of how much ##H## changed during all the time that the light we are seeing now from an object with a given redshift ##z## was traveling. The larger the redshift ##z##, the more ##H## will have changed during the light's travel, so the worse an approximation the formula ##d = H z##, which assumes that ##H## is constant, will be. (Alternatively, instead of using the value of ##H## right now in the formula, you could use some sort of average value of ##H## over the travel time of the light, but then the value of ##H## you used in the formula would depend on ##z##.)
 

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