News Are the Founding Fathers as Infallible as We Think?

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The discussion emphasizes the fallibility of the U.S. Constitution, highlighting that it was crafted by imperfect individuals, much like contemporary politicians. Participants argue that the Constitution is not a static document, as evidenced by its amendments and ongoing debates about its interpretation. The conversation also touches on the reverence some people hold for the Constitution, comparing it to religious texts, and questions whether this attitude is beneficial or problematic. Additionally, there is a recognition that the founding fathers had differing views, complicating any attempt to idolize them. Overall, the dialogue reflects on the need for critical examination of both the Constitution and its creators.
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I thought this was a good reminder of the people involved in the formation of our government and the fallibility of the constitution.

The Constitution’s framers were flawed like today’s politicians, so it’s high time we stop embalming them in infallibility.

He may have written the Declaration of Independence, but were he around today Thomas Jefferson wouldn’t have a prayer of winning the Republican nomination, much less the presidency. It wouldn’t be his liaison with the teenage daughter of one of his slaves nor the love children she bore him that would be the stumbling block. Nor would it be Jefferson’s suspicious possession of an English translation of the Quran that might doom him to fail the Newt Gingrich loyalty test. No, it would be the Jesus problem that would do him in. For Thomas Jefferson denied that Jesus was the son of God. Worse, he refused to believe that Jesus ever made any claim that he was. While he was at it, Jefferson also rejected as self-evidently absurd the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection.
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http://news.yahoo.com/the-founding-fathers--unzipped.html
 
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What is the fallibility of the Constitution exactly? And what does the un PC lives of the "fathers" have to do with it?

Interesting discussion, BTW.
 
drankin said:
What is the fallibility of the Constitution exactly? And what does the un PC lives of the "fathers" have to do with it?

Interesting discussion, BTW.
The article is mostly about politicians (and the general populace) holding completely wrong information about our country.

Our founding fathers didn't agree on the constitution, and when it's ammended, it's also not entirely agreed upon, and then it's changed, and changed again. It's not the ten commandments like some people seem to believe, IMO.

I mostly thought it might be an eye opener with the current politicians tossing nonsense around like it was irrefutable truth.
 
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drankin said:
What is the fallibility of the Constitution exactly? And what does the un PC lives of the "fathers" have to do with it?

Interesting discussion, BTW.

The Fallibility of the Constitution was that it was made by imperfect men, and is therefore not an entirely perfect document. At least, that would be my assumption. The un-PC lives of the "fathers" shows that they were imperfect, which makes it pretty much impossible for them to come up with something perfect.

Good yes, Great even, but not perfect - as shown by the many amendments, and the arguments over what they meant when they said "this" or "that".
 
It isn't so much about the Constitution as the men who framed it. But the notion that the Constitution is written in stone is fallacious. The Constitution can be amended, which has happened many times, or even rewritten. But that is a different argument than suggesting that it shouldn't be followed to the letter of the law. At any time it represents the best efforts of a free people to govern themselves. If it needs to be changed, then that must happen according to a procedure that protects everyone's interests and rights. The entire point of having a Constitution is to protect us from the fallibility and potential corruption of those given power. It is the failings and sins of our leaders, nevermind the ever-present threat of mob rule, that create the need for a Constitution in the first place.
 
Ryumast3r said:
The Fallibility of the Constitution was that it was made by imperfect men, and is therefore not an entirely perfect document. At least, that would be my assumption. The un-PC lives of the "fathers" shows that they were imperfect, which makes it pretty much impossible for them to come up with something perfect.

Good yes, Great even, but not perfect - as shown by the many amendments, and the arguments over what they meant when they said "this" or "that".

That doesn't answer my question. And I never said it wasn't perfect. I simply asked for a specific example. The fact that amendments were made is not an argument to it's fallibily, but a testament to how well it was designed.
 
well i had no idea jefferson was a closet muslim. things have changed very little indeed.
 
drankin said:
That doesn't answer my question. And I never said it wasn't perfect. I simply asked for a specific example. The fact that amendments were made is not an argument to it's fallibily, but a testament to how well it was designed.

Separation of church and state, for example. Both sides try to find some type of high principle for the way that amendment was worded and should be interpreted, but the real motivation was just plain old pragmatism. Various states had different religions as their state religion (and a few even required separation of church and state). If you actually had to pick one religion to be the national religion, you wouldn't have had a United States, at all. The states never would have agreed on which religion to pick. The pragmatic solution was to avoid the issue completely; decide religious issues were one thing the federal government just wouldn't deal with.

It is true Thomas Jefferson was ardent about separation of church and state for other reasons - the statements about his religious beliefs were true, but he still had to belong to the Anglican church or be ineligible to hold office in the state of Virginia.

But there were other 'founding fathers' that were equally adamant that the government should reflect religious values and that laws requiring a person to be a certain religion in order to hold office were perfectly valid.

The individual leanings, ideals, etc were just irrelevant, since there was no possible way the federal government could deal with religion without breaking up the states.
 
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I totally disagree with the author that the transgressions he noted are unreconsilable. He focuses so much on the Constitutional Framer's religious beliefs, but then forgets to come back to the point: they were still Christian, even if they don't believe the fundamentalist-type beliefs verbatium.

The author does have a point near the end of his article - education is key. Too bad the discussions about the Constitutional Framer's are being pushed aside in favor of 'diversity' et al, so students just get the Cliff's Notes version.

I really had a hard time reading the article. The author comes off very spiteful and inflamatory. He writing reminds me of an individual that stays quiet when a question is asked, but then is the first person to interrupt and correct when the person to first respond answers. He's not willing to stick his neck out, except to push someone else down.
 
  • #10
Evo said:
The article is mostly about politicians (and the general populace) holding completely wrong information about our country.

Our founding fathers didn't agree on the constitution, and when it's ammended, it's also not entirely agreed upon, and then it's changed, and changed again. It's not the ten commandments like some people seem to believe.

I mostly thought it might be an eye opener with the current politicians tossing nonsense around like it was irrefutable truth.
What wrong information are you referring to? You have a link? Who's saying the constitution is like the ten commandments, that it was entirely agreed upon, that it hasn't been changed, that our founders were infallible?

I've never heard anyone make such claims. Do you have a source for someone holding the views you refer to?
 
  • #11
Al68 said:
What wrong information are you referring to? You have a link? Who's saying the constitution is like the ten commandments, that it was entirely agreed upon, that it hasn't been changed, that our founders were infallible?

I've never heard anyone make such claims. Do you have a source for someone holding the views you refer to?

The comparison between some people's comments about the Bible and some people's comments about the Constitution are unavoidable, even if those comments almost never say the Constitution is a sacred text.

This article, Tea Party Rooted in Religious Fervor for Constitution mentions the Tea Party, specifically, but it also shows how this isn't a new phenomena. Right from the very beginning, some of the founding fathers were treating the Constitution as a sacred text:

Washington, in his farewell address, called for the Constitution to be “sacredly maintained.” James Madison wrote that the nation’s “political scriptures” must be defended with “holy zeal.” George Sutherland, a Supreme Court nominee in the 1920s, described the Constitution as “divinely inspired.” The constitutional lawyer Louis Marshall, drawing an analogy from his Jewish heritage, referred to the document as “our holy of holies.”

Even atheists using the Constitution to justify separation of church and state tend to resemble the religious quoting from the Bible in style, if not content.
 
  • #12
i don't see any problem with treating the constitution in a quasi-religious fashion. if you don't, it will be amended willy-nilly, and the next thing you know you've lost the ability to speak freely or gain that freedom back without a bloody revolution.
 
  • #13
The Constitution is a revered document. Not unlike religious documents to it's followers. The followers of the Constitution just happen to be an entire nation. I'm not getting why that is an issue. ??
 
  • #14
Proton Soup said:
i don't see any problem with treating the constitution in a quasi-religious fashion. if you don't, it will be amended willy-nilly, and the next thing you know you've lost the ability to speak freely or gain that freedom back without a bloody revolution.

I agree - changes should never be an emotional response or made without exhaustive debate and majority agreement.
 
  • #15
Al68 said:
What wrong information are you referring to? You have a link? Who's saying the constitution is like the ten commandments, that it was entirely agreed upon, that it hasn't been changed, that our founders were infallible?

I've never heard anyone make such claims. Do you have a source for someone holding the views you refer to?

drankin said:
The Constitution is a revered document. Not unlike religious documents to it's followers. The followers of the Constitution just happen to be an entire nation. I'm not getting why that is an issue. ??
This discussion puts a lot of the answers into a nutshell, just the first few minutes covers your questions, IMO.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/TheConstit
 
  • #16
Proton Soup said:
i don't see any problem with treating the constitution in a quasi-religious fashion. if you don't, it will be amended willy-nilly, and the next thing you know you've lost the ability to speak freely or gain that freedom back without a bloody revolution.

drankin said:
The Constitution is a revered document. Not unlike religious documents to it's followers. The followers of the Constitution just happen to be an entire nation. I'm not getting why that is an issue. ??

WhoWee said:
I agree - changes should never be an emotional response or made without exhaustive debate and majority agreement.

This the more relevant point. Is there a problem with the way people treat the Constitution?

And if the Contstitution should be a revered document that should never be drastically changed, is there a problem extending that reverence to the guys that wrote it?

For every Jefferson quote that can seemingly irrefutably prove the correctness of some point, you could probably find a Hamilton quote that irrefutably proved the opposite (seeing as those two often had differing viewpoints about government). You run into problems when you start treating the guys that wrote it as a god, since you're going to have a hard time worshiping one god without offending the other.

And, on the topic of constitutions, in general - not just the US Constitution, but state constitutions as well - isn't getting a constitutional amendment passed just a way for the dead to maintain rule over the living?

Interesting take by William Saletan. I'm not sure I agree with him - I think he chooses his words to oversensationalize the issue - but an interesting view of constitutional amendments, none the less.

But most states can't do what New York did. Their legislatures can't legalize gay marriage, because their voters have passed ballot measures that prohibit it under their state constitutions. The ballot measures were enacted years ago, when gay marriage was unpopular. Now many of the old voters who opposed same-sex marriage are being replaced by young voters who support it. But the old electorate, through its constitutional amendments, has handcuffed the new electorate. The living are being ruled by the dead.
 
  • #17
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  • #18
BobG said:
And, on the topic of constitutions, in general - not just the US Constitution, but state constitutions as well - isn't getting a constitutional amendment passed just a way for the dead to maintain rule over the living?

Very good point, especially when said amendment prohibits the people rather than the government. Can you imagine of prohibition was still enacted?
 
  • #19
BobG said:
This the more relevant point. Is there a problem with the way people treat the Constitution?

apparently, from evo's link, people treat the constitution in a lot of different ways, and this is very much like it has always been.

And if the Contstitution should be a revered document that should never be drastically changed, is there a problem extending that reverence to the guys that wrote it?

For every Jefferson quote that can seemingly irrefutably prove the correctness of some point, you could probably find a Hamilton quote that irrefutably proved the opposite (seeing as those two often had differing viewpoints about government). You run into problems when you start treating the guys that wrote it as a god, since you're going to have a hard time worshiping one god without offending the other.

yeah, so? they disagreed, but compromised and hammered out their differences into something they could all live with. the result has been pretty successful.

and even if you want to get into idolatry here, our constitution was wise enough not to be a respecter of any particular god.

And, on the topic of constitutions, in general - not just the US Constitution, but state constitutions as well - isn't getting a constitutional amendment passed just a way for the dead to maintain rule over the living?

Interesting take by William Saletan. I'm not sure I agree with him - I think he chooses his words to oversensationalize the issue - but an interesting view of constitutional amendments, none the less.

same ol', same ol', as far as I'm concerned.

personally, I'm not really sure what this thread is supposed to be about unless it's some intellectual hubris and looking down our noses at those rubes over there? well, things still change, just as they always have: slowly.
 
  • #20
Proton Soup said:
apparently, from evo's link, people treat the constitution in a lot of different ways, and this is very much like it has always been.



yeah, so? they disagreed, but compromised and hammered out their differences into something they could all live with. the result has been pretty successful.

and even if you want to get into idolatry here, our constitution was wise enough not to be a respecter of any particular god.



same ol', same ol', as far as I'm concerned.

personally, I'm not really sure what this thread is supposed to be about unless it's some intellectual hubris and looking down our noses at those rubes over there? well, things still change, just as they always have: slowly.
The OP was about the lack of knowledge being tossed about as fact by potential presidential hopefuls. It was about setting history straight.
 
  • #21
BobG said:
And, on the topic of constitutions, in general - not just the US Constitution, but state constitutions as well - isn't getting a constitutional amendment passed just a way for the dead to maintain rule over the living?
It might be if the US Constitution was not overwhelmingly an enumeration of what the federal government shall not do, and not about what US citizens may or may not do, e.g. Congress shall pass no law ..., no Appropriation of money ... longer than two years; No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto; No Title of Nobility, No Preference shall be given ... Ports of one State over ... another; nor shall private property be taken ....

The US constitution cliff notes might roughly state: elect some guys in thus and so manner, and then the government shall not, no, no, no, not, not, not, nor, nor, nor, no, no, no, don't event think about it, no.
 
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  • #22
Evo said:
This discussion puts a lot of the answers into a nutshell, just the first few minutes covers your questions, IMO.
One of my questions was sort of answered, assuming the comparison you made between the constitution and the the bible was just that each is "revered" by many.

But I still haven't seen any substantiation of anyone claiming that the constitution was entirely agreed on, has never been amended, or that our founders were infallible. :confused:
 
  • #23
Al68 said:
But I still haven't seen any substantiation of anyone claiming that the constitution was entirely agreed on, has never been amended, or that our founders were infallible. :confused:
Since I said the opposite, I have no clue why you're asking me.
 
  • #24
Michelle Bachmann has claimed recently that John Quincy Adams was a "founding father", and that the founding fathers eliminated slavery. Neither statement is even close to accurate. Of course, when she gave a speech in NH recently and claimed that NH was home to the opening shots of the Revolutionary War (actually fired in Lexington and Concord in Massachusetts) the "liberal media" didn't adequately highlight her ignorance on the evening news, IMO. If someone is running for President, it might be a good idea for our "liberal" media to point out some of this stuff and make it stick. Smart JHS students could have edited her speeches for accuracy. I don't want a poorly-educated ideologue in the White House again.
 
  • #25
Evo said:
The article is mostly about politicians (and the general populace) holding completely wrong information about our country.

Our founding fathers didn't agree on the constitution, and when it's ammended, it's also not entirely agreed upon, and then it's changed, and changed again. It's not the ten commandments like some people seem to believe, IMO.
Evo said:
Al68 said:
But I still haven't seen any substantiation of anyone claiming that the constitution was entirely agreed on, has never been amended, or that our founders were infallible. :confused:
Since I said the opposite, I have no clue why you're asking me.
You at least implied that some politicians were claiming such "wrong information". I was asking who was claiming such things, not for evidence that such things were true.
 
  • #26
turbo-1 said:
Michelle Bachmann has claimed recently that John Quincy Adams was a "founding father", and that the founding fathers eliminated slavery.
Bachmann has made enough legitimate flubs that there is no reason to invent a fictional one. She said our founders "worked tirelessly" to eliminate slavery, not that they were (entirely) successful.

If she ever claimed that they actually eliminated it, let's see a link.

As far as her legitimate flubs, they pale in comparison to many of Obama's, so they hardly mean she is "poorly educated". It's not like she thought we had 57 states or didn't know how to say "corpsman" or thought asthma sufferers should be given "breathalyzers" or "inhalators".
 
  • #27
Al68 said:
You at least implied that some politicians were claiming such "wrong information". I was asking who was claiming such things, not for evidence that such things were true.
Nope, I wasn't tying the two together. Although I'm sure if you dig, you'll find some, IMO.
 
  • #28
Al68 said:
Bachmann has made enough legitimate flubs that there is no reason to invent a fictional one. She said our founders "worked tirelessly" to eliminate slavery, not that they were (entirely) successful.

If she ever claimed that they actually eliminated it, let's see a link.

As far as her legitimate flubs, they pale in comparison to many of Obama's, so they hardly mean she is "poorly educated". It's not like she thought we had 57 states or didn't know how to say "corpsman" or thought asthma sufferers should be given "breathalyzers" or "inhalators".

http://www.thenation.com/blog/16179...her-teapot-patriots-do-not-know-about-america

The unsettling thing about Michele Bachmann’s failed discussion of the founders and slavery is not that the Tea Party “Patriot” knew so little about the birth of the American experiment that she made John Quincy Adams—the son of a somewhat disappointing founder (John) and the cousin of one of the true revolutionaries (Sam)—into something he was not.

Bachmann has for some time peddled the notion that the nation’s founding fathers worked “tirelessly until slavery was no more in the United States.” She is simply wrong about this. The last of the revolutionaries generally recognized by historians as the founders—signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and their chief political and military comrades—passed in 1836, with the death of James Madison. That was twenty-seven years before the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, and twenty-nine years before the finish of the Civil War.
 
  • #29
Al68 said:
Bachmann has made enough legitimate flubs that there is no reason to invent a fictional one. She said our founders "worked tirelessly" to eliminate slavery, not that they were (entirely) successful.
Enough with the trolling, (all of your posts, not this one in particular).


This is a video interview with her.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2011/06/john-quincy-adams-a-founding-father-michele-bachmann-says-yes.html

Bachmann spoke at an Iowans for Tax Relief event over the weekend and she blipped my radar with this musing on the early settlers, who "had different cultures, different backgrounds, different traditions":

How unique in all of the world, that one nation that was the resting point from people groups all across the world. It didn't matter the color of their skin, it didn't matter their language, it didn't matter their economic status... Once you got here, we were all the same. Isn't that remarkable? It's absolutely remarkable.


Bachmann also earned my raised eyebrow with her musings on slavery -- a "scourge" -- and the founding fathers, who she said "worked tirelessly until slavery was no more in the United States."

I think it is high time that we recognize the contribution of our forbearers who worked tirelessly -- men like John Quincy Adams, who would not rest until slavery was extinguished in the country.


Talking Points Memo corrected Bachmann's history lesson by pointing out that Adams wasn't one of the founders and that he died 15 years before the Emancipation Proclamation. Perhaps she was thinking of John Adams, the second president of the United States, who is different from John Quincy Adams, the new nation's sixth president.
continued...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2011/01/michele_bachmanns_absolutely_a.html
 
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  • #30
BobG said:
And, on the topic of constitutions, in general - not just the US Constitution, but state constitutions as well - isn't getting a constitutional amendment passed just a way for the dead to maintain rule over the living?
The 18th amendment (prohibition) is an example of the constitution being misused to codify law instead of serve as government's charter. Even if you favor prohibition, a legitimate amendment would merely have delegated power to the federal government to prohibit alcohol, not actually prohibited alcohol directly.

It was an attempt by "the dead to maintain rule over the living", which is why prohibitions on actions by citizens should never be contained in constitutions. That's what legislation is for.

But that example is an exception. A constitution is generally a charter for government, not a collection of laws for people to obey. The amendment process was intended as a means to make changes to government's charter, not to codify laws.
 
  • #31
Evo said:
Enough with the trolling, (all of your posts, not this one in particular).
Isn't there a forum rule against editing the post you're replying to in a way that misrepresents it? In particular, you edited out the following:
Al68 said:
If she ever claimed that they actually eliminated it, let's see a link.
As far as the second link you provided, it does substantiate turbo1's claim, and I was unaware of it and I stand corrected. My source was your first link which says exactly what I said ("worked tirelessly to end slavery").

But you know full well that's not what the word "trolling" means.

And characterize "all my posts" as trolling all you want. I'm happy to let other forum members come to whatever conclusions they want.
 
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  • #32
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  • #33
mege said:
I totally disagree with the author that the transgressions he noted are unreconsilable. He focuses so much on the Constitutional Framer's religious beliefs, but then forgets to come back to the point: they were still Christian, even if they don't believe the fundamentalist-type beliefs verbatium.

Two-thirds of the framers of the Constitution were either Deists or Unitarians. Neither group accepts the divinity of Jesus, original sin, or the redemptive power of his death. I am stumped how you can call anybody who does not accept these three tenets a Christian. They are the core beliefs of all Christian creeds.

Church membership does not make one a Christian. Today's Anglican archbishops are not even required to believe in God. In the pre-revolution colonies, you could not hold public office unless you were a member of the Church of England.

During the framing of the Constitution, a motion was made to include some mention of either God or Jesus. The motion failed to pass. There is no mention of either in the Constitution and this omission is deliberate.
 
  • #34
klimatos said:
Two-thirds of the framers of the Constitution were either Deists or Unitarians. Neither group accepts the divinity of Jesus, original sin, or the redemptive power of his death. I am stumped how you can call anybody who does not accept these three tenets a Christian. They are the core beliefs of all Christian creeds.

Church membership does not make one a Christian. Today's Anglican archbishops are not even required to believe in God. In the pre-revolution colonies, you could not hold public office unless you were a member of the Church of England.

During the framing of the Constitution, a motion was made to include some mention of either God or Jesus. The motion failed to pass. There is no mention of either in the Constitution and this omission is deliberate.

They self-identified Christian even if they didn't accept all the dogma associated with it. The overarching point is - they probably had morals that were derived from their Christian beliefs.
 
  • #35
mege said:
They self-identified Christian even if they didn't accept all the dogma associated with it. The overarching point is - they probably had morals that were derived from their Christian beliefs.

I have read a lot by and about the founding fathers. I can not recall any of those who were either Deists or Unitarians "self-identifying" as Christians. Please provide substantiation for your assertion.

As to their "probably" having morals "derived from their Christian beliefs." This is circular reasoning. If they weren't Christians, then they "probably" did not have many Christian beliefs.

Let's take George Washington as an example. His wife, Martha, insisted he was a Deist. Both his Anglican ministers (Philadelphia and Mount Vernon) insisted he was a Deist. His voluminous correspondence often refers to a Creator (a common Deist term), but never mentions Jesus. Their were no Christian ministers at his deathbed, and he was buried in a Masonic ritual, not a Christian one. His tomb displays no Christian symbols or references. His public monument is a pagan phallic symbol--an obelisk. And you think he was a Christian?

Sir, I give you credit for your faith, but I have grave reservations about your reasoning ability.
 
  • #36
All of the 'founding fathers' would have been raised in Christian households. Whatever beliefs they have regarding the establishment of the church later in life likely doesn't change their moralistic stand as being aligned with Christianity - a few (Franklin and Jefferson mostly) just rejected the dogma that the church carries. Jefferson even wrote his own bible in an attempt to 'cleanse' it of the evangalism and overreaching human dogma - to purify the message contained within.

I think you misunderstand masonic 'rituals' as being a mason only reaffirms the moralistic ideals. Masons are seeped in Christian mythology and their teachings, now and at that time, were morals of the church played out in 'playful' ways - without the attachment of the church at large. However, G. Washington's wikipedia page indicates that he was buried with Christian rites, as well as masonic rites. Masonry isn't some 'wierd pagan thing', but a fraternity for 'believers' and dogooders. (I understand the sourcing issue, but that's a bold statement to be taken on Wikipedia without it being hyper liberalized - esspecially in recent arguements like this)

All of that aside, there are more founding fathers than just Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin. Even if you can prove unequivocally that they were not thinking in a moralistic way - there's still dozens of other constitutional framers that would have mostly been mainstream Christians at the time. The only 'they weren't Christian' arguements are basically 'they didn't trust the church' arguements and had some streaks of thought outside the mainstream. Philosophical musings aside, are there any actions of Jefferson, Washington or Franklin that make one think they weren't Christian? Jefferson rewrote the Bible to 'purify' it of evangalism, Ben Franklin is quoted multiple times about the neccessity for virtue (and religion's neccessity to achieve it),and President Washington in his farewell address gave his view that a society should be moralistic and religious:

Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it - It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence.

Since George Washington was also the main point of contention,http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/ot2www-washington?specfile=/texts/english/washington/fitzpatrick/search/gw.o2w&act=surround&offset=18502415&tag=Writings+of+Washington,+Vol.+15:+SPEECH+TO+THE+DELAWARE+CHIEFS&query=the+religion+of+jesus&id=gw150049
You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it.

Over all - I do not deny that many had Deistic thoughts, after all, that's WHY they wanted to escape from the state church (of England) and establish a separation of church and state. They didn't want the dogma to control their lives, but I feel that calling them non-Christian is a gross misservice. Why can't Deism and the teachings of Christianity coexist in this context? You can cite some procedural problems, which are semantics, and don't affect how the individual would act in an every day setting. They all expounded publicly about the need for virtuism and the neccessity of religions in a person's life - what other religion would they be talking about?

Lastly, because I know it'll be brought up - I'm far from being a religious individual. However, I am not some 'god hating athiest' (my belief in a god is intermediate, if there is a god, it won't matter if I acknowledge him or not so why bother?) and do have a respect for those whom have non-evangelical views regarding religion. There are Christian nut-jobs out there, but there are also many people who live better lives because of what they've been taught in a Church (or other house of worship).
 
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  • #37
Mege: I congratulate you on a well-reasoned and temperate response. Were we to meet, I don't doubt but that we could sit down to an enjoyable discussion on many topics of mutual interest.

It appears that our differences on the "Christian" nature of our founding fathers are semantic. You have a broader definition of the term than I do. Did they live in a Christian culture? Absolutely. Were they exposed to moral teachings based on Christian traditions. Yes. Were they baptized as Christians and attended Christian religious services. Many did--including George Washington.

However, Jewish colonists lived in the same culture without being Christian. This illustrates the essence of our different views. I believe that the term "Christian" implies certain religious beliefs that distinguish a Christian from followers of other religions and from agnostics and freethinkers.

What you call "Christian" morals and ethics are not uniquely Christian, but are shared in many respects by religious teachers and men of goodwill in a wide variety of world religions.

Did Washington think that the moral teachings of Jesus were superior to the moral teachings of the Delaware culture? I believe that he did. Moreover, I believe that that belief would have been shared by the majority of the "founding fathers". This belief, however, does not make him or them Christian.

Deists believe in a "Creator". However, they also believe that this Creator gave no guidance of any kind to mankind as to how man should behave or act. This Creator is completely and utterly indifferent as to mankind's beliefs, actions, or ultimate fate. George Washington was a Deist.

I believe that I have made my point, but doubt that I have made a "believer" out of you. Shall we agree to disagree?
 
  • #38
klimatos said:
George Washington was a Deist.

I think it's fine to have an opinion - however, you've made a statement of fact - please support.

I found this explanation:
http://www.adherents.com/people/pw/George_Washington.html

"While he was President, Washington attended Christ Church (an Anglican/Episcopalian congregation) in Philadelphia.

George Washington has frequently been described as a "Deist." Washington is not known to have described himself using this word, nor is he known to have been been a member of any Deist organizations. Some writings by George Washington indicate Deist beliefs; other writings indicate non-Deist beliefs.

Although he was an Anglican and an Episcopalian, Washington reportedly did not take communion and was not considered an official "communicant" (full-fledged adult church member).

It is generally agreed upon that Washington's beliefs could be described as "deist" during at least part of his life. Deism for Washington, as with most historical figueres classifed as deists, was never an actual religious affiliation, but was a classification of theological belief. As nearly all major political figures from Washington's era can be described as "deists" if a sufficiently broad definition is used an if the correct quotations are selected, classifying Washington as a Deist may not by particularly useful or distinctive.

Although the Episcopal Church is the only denomination Washington ever attended with any regularlity, he was not particularly dedicated to the denomination nor did he have a strong Anglican or Episcopalian self-identity. During Washington's era there was no real notion that he was a "non-Christian," and his denominational affiliation certainly placed him well within "mainstream" Christianity at the time. But Washington's religious beliefs could be classified as relatively broad and non-specific. His disinterest or disbelief in some mainstream Protestant Christian beliefs have led later (usually partisan) commentators to label Washington as "non-Christian.""
 
  • #39
Nor would it be Jefferson’s suspicious possession of an English translation of the Quran that might doom him to fail the Newt Gingrich loyalty test.

The reason Jefferson held a copy of the Quran was because he was seeking to learn as much as he could about Muslims, as he was about to declare war at the time on the Muslim states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Tripoli. During that time, for centuries, Muslim pirates were cruising the Mediterranean and African coastlines, pillaging villages and taking slaves. They also robbed ships. When America rebelled against Britain in 1776, American merchant ships lost the protection of the British Royal Navy, and thus began getting captured by the pirates.

Because America had no navy at the time, it tried to appease the Muslim pirates by paying tribute to the them in order to retrieve seized American ships and sailors. Congress appointed a special commission in 1784 consisting of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin to oversea the negotiations. John Adams believed paying tribute was the best way to restore American commerce in the region, but Jefferson believed that all paying tribute would do is incentivize the pirates to keep capturing American ships and sailors and demanding more tribute. Jefferson proposed creating a league of trading nations to end the piracy. Nevertheless, Congress began and continued to pay tribute for the next fifteen years, with the tributes amounting to about 20% of the government's annual revenues in 1800. When Jefferson was inaugurated as President in 1801, one of the first things he did was to dispatch a group of frigates to the Mediterranean to stop the pirates. He informed Congress of it and that the United States was going to paying millions of dollars for defense, but not for tribute.

Jefferson also dispatched the U.S. Marines and some of America's best warships, such as the USS Constitution, the USS Chesapeake, the USS Philadelphia, the USS Constellation, USS Argus, USS Syren, and USS Intrepid. In 1805, American Marines marched across the desert from Egypt to Tripolitania, where they forced the surrender of Tripoli and freed the American slaves there. The four Muslim Barbary states were unable to withstand all the pounding from the American naval ships and on-shore raids by the Marines, and as a result agreed during Jefferson's administration to end all piracy and slavery. It took until 1815 for the problem to be fully solved with the total defeat of the Muslim pirates.

Note the line from the Marine Corps hymn: "From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli, we will fight our country's battles on the land as on the sea."
 
  • #40
Evo said:
The article is mostly about politicians (and the general populace) holding completely wrong information about our country.

Our founding fathers didn't agree on the constitution, and when it's ammended, it's also not entirely agreed upon, and then it's changed, and changed again. It's not the ten commandments like some people seem to believe, IMO.

I think people get a bit confused when people talk about the Constitution being sacred or whatnot. When people say adhere to the Constitution, they mean as it is currently written. Also because of what it says and allows (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, checks and balances on the government, etc...). But of course it is changed throughout history. That's the point. The Founding Fathers made it that way. They created a very brief document that covered only the really big stuff, and left everything else up to the government, which is elected by the People. It is the job of the Supreme Court to see if legislation keeps in line with the often silent Constitution, regardless of whether they agree with the legislation or not and whether the Constitution is thought to be morally right or wrong. If a good piece of legislation is found to be un-Constitutional, then that is grounds for creating a formal amendment, not claiming that the legislation is "Constitutional" because the Court's justices want it to be. The Founders included the amendment provision so that the Constitution could be changed and adapted if required. If it is found that the Founding Fathers got something wrong with the Constitution or flat out forgot something or some part is just flat-out outdated, then there is the amendment process to change it. This also is what makes the Constitution timeless, because the Founders, in addition to making it brief, made it flexible. They knew that the world would change as the centuries went by, so they designed it where it could change.

And yes, the Founders disagreed very much on how to author the Constitution. At the Constitutional Convention, there were multiple plans put forth for a Constitution that would have given the federal government a massive amount of power, and very little to the states, but this was rejected (Alaxander Hamilton prosposed such a Constitution I believe). The original Constitution as written many of the founders would not even sign until the first ten amendments were added to it (Bill of Rights). Additional amendments outlawed slavery, ensured a woman's right to vote, outlawed liquor, undid the anti-liquor amendment, established the income tax, etc...The problem is that too many today (usually on the far Left) decide to interpret the Constitution as a "living document," that you interpret "according to the times" (which really means the Constitution gets to say whatever they want it to say). With judicial activism, the person's right rests with a few justices on the Court, as opposed to a formal amendment in the Constitution. It also turns the Supreme Court, which is supposed to just interpret what the Constitution is saying and then see if the legislation is in line with the Constitution, into a third legislative branch. A justice on the Court is supposed to keep their political views out of the matter.

Some people on the extreme Right do the 180 degree opposite of the far Left. Whereas the far Left often want to interpret the Constitution as a "living document," many on the Right think that if the Constitution doesn't explicitly say something, then it is un-Constitutional. For example, you have the far-Right people who say all foreign military bases of the U.S. are un-Constitutional, that all major government agencies are un-Constitutional (FBI, CIA, NSA, FDA, DoE, etc...), the Federal Reserve is un-Constitutional, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, food stamps, unemployment insurance, etc...are all un-Constitutional. Generally, my understanding is these are all permitted through the Commerce Clause, the Necessary and Proper Clause, and the General Welfare Clause, which give the government a lot more power then one might initially think from the Constitution.

The Left tend not to like the Constitution except for a few parts of it because it was written as a document that basically says the federal government can only do this, this, and that, and otherwise cannot do much, which is a major pain to those who believe strongly in a big, powerful central government. Often there is the excuse such as, "The Founders did not know about nuclear missiles, the Internet, Facebook, germs, etc..." correct, but that's why they made the Constitution brief and amendable. The Court's job is to make sure the laws made keep in line with the Constitution and if the Constitution needs to be changed, it can be amended.

Also interesting to remember is that originally, the Bill of Rights only applied to the federal government. It wasn't until later on via incorporation that they came to be applied to states and local governments (and only recently the 2nd Amendment I think).
 
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  • #41
WhoWee said:
I think it's fine to have an opinion - however, you've made a statement of fact - please support.

Since I obviously did not know George Washington personally, I must rely on the opinions of those who did. The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie was the pastor of the Anglican church in Philadelphia where George and Martha were regular attendees when in that city. I quote him in a conversation with the Rev. Dr. Bird Wilson reported in a letter written on 13 November 1831.

"Sir, George Washington was a Deist!"

The quote is well known, and can be found in a variety of sources on the religious beliefs of our early presidents.

Dr. Wilson, in an earlier sermon, stated "Washington was a man of valor and wisdom. He was esteemed by the whole world as a great and good man; but he was not a professing Christian."

Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal entry dated in February of 1800 wrote, "Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system [Christianity] than did he himself." Morris, the chief author of the Constitution, was considered to be an intimate of Washington's.

As you pointed out in your post, Deism is a philosophy, and not a religious sect with any formal structure. A good many of our founding fathers considered themselves to be Deists and were so considered by others who were their contemporaries.
 
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