Are there any elementary functions of norms that are still norms?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the exploration of whether there exist elementary functions of norms that still qualify as norms themselves within the context of Banach spaces. Participants examine the implications of applying various functions to norms and the conditions necessary for these functions to retain the properties of norms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that if ##d(x,y)## is a metric, then ##\frac{d}{1+d}## is also a metric, prompting a question about the existence of functions ##f## such that ##f(N)## is a norm when ##N## is a norm on a Banach space.
  • One participant suggests that for ##f \circ N## to be a norm, it must satisfy linearity, leading to the conclusion that ##f(x) = Cx## for some positive constant ##C##, which they argue is not particularly interesting.
  • Another participant raises the diversity of norms, such as those defined by integration, differentiation, supremums, and eigenvalues, questioning whether there are any elementary functions that could yield a norm.
  • Further clarification is provided on the requirements for a norm, emphasizing the conditions that any function ##f : [0, \infty) \to \mathbb{R}## must satisfy to ensure that ##f \circ N## remains a norm.
  • One participant speculates that while linearity is restrictive, compositions of integrals and derivatives might still yield a norm, suggesting a potential area for further exploration.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of elementary functions that can produce norms, with some asserting that only linear functions satisfy the necessary conditions, while others believe there may be more possibilities, particularly through compositions of other mathematical operations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the restrictive nature of the linearity condition for functions of norms and the implications of various types of norms defined through different mathematical operations. There are unresolved questions regarding the potential for other functions to qualify as norms.

askmathquestions
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If ##d(x,y)## is a metric, then it is said ##\frac{d}{1+d}## is also a metric. I don't know the proof of this, I'd appreciate a reference, but it got me wondering:

If ##N(x)## is a norm on a Banach space ##x \in X##, then are there functions in a single real (or complex) variable ##f## (besides the identity function) for which ##f(N)## is also a norm? What would be the purpose of different norms of this nature?
 
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askmathquestions said:
If ##d(x,y)## is a metric, then it is said ##\frac{d}{1+d}## is also a metric. I don't know the proof of this, I'd appreciate a reference,

Establishing the triangle inequality comes down to proving that for all positive a, b and c, if a + b \geq c then <br /> \frac{a}{1 + a} + \frac{b}{1 + b} \geq \frac{c}{1 + c}. This is done by showing that x/(1 + x) is strictly increasing for x &gt; 0 and showing that <br /> \frac{a}{1 + a} + \frac{b}{1 + b} = \frac{a + b + 2ab}{1 + a + b + ab} \geq \frac{a + b}{1 + a + b} for all positive a and b.

If ##N(x)## is a norm on a Banach space ##x \in X##, then are there functions in a single real (or complex) variable ##f## (besides the identity function) for which ##f(N)## is also a norm? What would be the purpose of different norms of this nature?

If N is a norm, and you want f \circ N to be a norm, then you must satisfy the linearity requirement: <br /> f(N(ax)) = f(|a|N(x)) = |a|f(N(x)). Since you also need f(0) = 0 the conclusion is that f(x) = Cx for some positive constant C. This amounts to changing your unit of measurement, which isn't all that interesting.
 
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Thanks for your reply. There's so many types of norms though, norms defined by integration, norms defined by differentiation (both of which are linear operators), norms defined by supremums, norms defined by the eigenvalues of a matrix, so on. None of these operations are simply scalar multiples of each other, you're absolutely sure there's no elementary functions for which ##f(N)## is also a norm?
 
askmathquestions said:
Thanks for your reply. There's so many types of norms though, norms defined by integration, norms defined by differentiation (both of which are linear operators), norms defined by supremums, norms defined by the eigenvalues of a matrix, so on. None of these operations are simply scalar multiples of each other, you're absolutely sure there's no elementary functions for which ##f(N)## is also a norm?

A norm N: V \mapsto \mathbb{R} on a vector space V has to satisfy the requirements of being a norm:
  • For every v \in V, N(v) \geq 0 with N(v) = 0 iff v = 0.
  • For every v \in V and every scalar a, N(av) = |a|N(v).
  • For every v \in V and every w \in V, N(v + w) \leq N(v) + N(w).

f : [0, \infty) \to \mathbb{R} has to satisfy conditions which make f \circ N: V \mapsto \mathbb{R} a norm, given that N satisfies the above requirements:
  • For every x \in [0, \infty), f(x) \geq 0 with f(x) = 0 iff x = 0.
  • For every x \in [0, \infty) and every a \in [0, \infty), f(ax) = af(x).

The second requirement is extremely restrictive for real functions, and only functions of the form x \mapsto Cx satisfy it.

An entirely different question is: given two vector spaces V and W, a (not necessarily linear) map L : V \to W and a norm N on W, under what circumstances is N \circ L a norm on V? I suspect you will find that L does actually need to be linear and injective, but that still admits much more possibility than just positive multiples of the identity.
 
Thanks for explaining. I guess the linearity is a very restrictive condition, since the only elementary functions with that property are linear functions, though compositions of integrals and derivatives might still yield a norm.
 

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