News Are UAW Union Bosses Abusing Their Positions for Pay?

[mgb_phys]

Japanese car makers have had several financial advantages. When they built factories in the USA they were give large subsidies by the individual States.

North carolina spent $4.7M on a bid to attract a Google data centre which will employ 50people, they expect state grants, tax breaks and infrastructure to be worth $250M

Nashville gave Dell
free land for the site worth $6.5 million
40 years of property tax abatements
$20 million in infrastructure improvements at the site funded by the city and state
one-time credits of $2,000 per employee against state franchise and excise taxes
Metro Nashville tax credits of $500 per employee for 40 years
industrial machinery state tax credits
$4,000 per employee to pay for job training costs (refundable after workers were hired).
all for a plant which Dell closed 18months later.

Of course this is nothing to the subsidy defence companies get - Boeing should just buy the car makers, they know they will get the money back later.

 

[Proton Soup]

Japanese car makers have had several financial advantages. When they built factories in the USA they were give large subsidies by the individual States.

http://www.reflectivepundit.com/reflectivepundit/2008/12/subsidies-for-foreign-car-makers-he-fall-of-detroits-big-three.html

Then there is the Yen subsidy:

http://www.autoyensubsidy.org/faq.html

http://www.autoyensubsidy.org/

Would Japan bail out it's automakers if they were in trouble?? I think that they would do it without hesitation.

as someone who has spent their whole life in Alabama, i have to say "tough luck" guys. detroit has had every opportunity to build here but hasn't. the north has been snubbing their nose at us and holding our heads under water since reconstruction, and frankly my dears, we just don't give a damn. as a matter of fact, yes, we do give out tax incentives to japanese, germans, or anyone else that wants to come build here. it's an investment in our futures. and we really don't care what anyone else thinks about it.

 

[edward]

as someone who has spent their whole life in Alabama, i have to say "tough luck" guys. detroit has had every opportunity to build here but hasn't. the north has been snubbing their nose at us and holding our heads under water since reconstruction, and frankly my dears, we just don't give a damn. as a matter of fact, yes, we do give out tax incentives to japanese, germans, or anyone else that wants to come build here. it's an investment in our futures. and we really don't care what anyone else thinks about it.

And if the Japanese car makers in Alabama were about to go in the tank you would probalby want them to be bailed out. It is all a matter of perspective.

 

[Proton Soup]

And if the Japanese car makers in Alabama were about to go in the tank you would probalby want them to be bailed out. It is all a matter of perspective.

no, i would not. thanks for playing.

 

[edward]

no, i would not. thanks for playing.

Sorry I didn't clarify. I don't think that you or the people in Alabama would have a problem with the Japanese government bailing them out.

 

[Proton Soup]

Sorry I didn't clarify. I don't think that you or the people in Alabama would have a problem with the Japanese government bailing them out.

nope, i don't think we would. i also don't think we'd have a problem with the people of Michigan bailing out GM.

 

[edward]

nope, i don't think we would. i also don't think we'd have a problem with the people of Michigan bailing out GM.

Only a small percentage of people employed in the American auto industry live in Michigan.

 

[WhoWee]

The big 3's problem is that the banks will not give them any more line of credit.

The problem is with the banks.

The bail out is for the banks.

The banks are is so much poo that they will no longer extend credit to the auto industry.

The solution is to give more money to the banks and make sure that it is earmarked for the auto industry.

Ohhhh!
Just put it on my bill! I'll pay for it on the way out.
jal

The banks were given their bailout to de-ice the credit freeze. Unfortunately, the banks don't seem to want to use the capital to make loans...they'd rather make acquisitions.

This deal has everyone in Ohio/Michigan and PA talking.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/the-hom...ants-pnc-national-city-deal-investigated.html

 

[Proton Soup]

Only a small percentage of people employed in the American auto industry live in Michigan.

small? several of the UAW regions are located there. http://www.uaw.org/about/where/uawmap.html

either way, some states are more affected than others. those states most affected could all chip in a couple of billion.

 

[WhoWee]

Layoffs have never been a concern of autoworkers

http://www.startribune.com/business/35570244.html?page=2&c=y

 

[mheslep]

We have already been there and done that. That is how the auto industry started. There were dozens of manufacturers in the early days. More than half of them folded during the great depression. Graham, Page, Essex, Hupmobile, Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_United_States_automobile_manufacturers

How long would it take 100 innovative auto companies to actually start production. I hate having to go to a salvage yards to get parts.

There are already dozens of new auto companies up and running, just not here.
http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12544933"

I really don't care what happens to the big three, but if they go down they take millions of auto industry related jobs with them. A lot of the parts that go into vehicles are made in small to medium sized factories all over the mid west.

Who says they are going 'down', vs into Chapter 11? And even if the GM and Chrysler closed shop, where do you get you the 'millions' figure (as in more than 2 million)?

 

[RonL]

There are already dozens of new auto companies up and running, just not here.
http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12544933"

Who says they are going 'down', vs into Chapter 11? And even if the GM and Chrysler closed shop, where do you get you the 'millions' figure (as in more than 2 million)?

WOW!

Just look at all those High Speed, Long Distance machines. I can just about rest my case.

Just think about how many arguments will be done away with, if the big three are gone.(my car is better than your's Ha Ha)

 

[edward]

Who says they are going 'down', vs into Chapter 11? And even if the GM and Chrysler closed shop, where do you get you the 'millions' figure (as in more than 2 million)?

If bankruptcy shuttered one or more U.S. auto-makers, the effect would be the loss of up to 3.3 million jobs in the U.S. within the next year, according to a study released today by the Economic Policy Institute. Michigan alone could lose over 400,000 jobs, and stands to be the hardest hit state both in the number of jobs lost and the share of total state employment (8.9%) lost. The report lists possible job losses in each state and the District of Columbia.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=32966

http://www.epi.org/briefingpapers/227/bp227.pdf

 

[edward]

Layoffs have never been a concern of autoworkers

http://www.startribune.com/business/35570244.html?page=2&c=y

That looks outrageous at first glance, but only a small minoity of people who make a living from the auto industry work on assembly lines in union factories.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cardesign15-2008dec15,0,3465329.story

 

[montoyas7940]

Toyota suspends work on new U.S. plant

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE4BE56S20081215

Our plant, Nissan in Smyrna Tn, is down to less than half of normal volume.
Normally we produce 550,000 vehicles a year.

A layoff is a concern to this auto worker...

 

[WhoWee]

That looks outrageous at first glance, but only a small minoity of people who make a living from the auto industry work on assembly lines in union factories.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cardesign15-2008dec15,0,3465329.story

Did you see the price of the "plug-in Hybrid" mentioned in the article...$87,000.

I'm not sure who the market is going to be for such a vehicle or more importantly which banks will lend that much money for an automobile?

If you look back over the past few years...if there wasn't an investment tax credit for large vehicles...I doubt if so many of the gas guzzling high ticket SUV's would have been sold...chicken and egg argument...I know. Hopefully Congress won't reward people for paying as much as possible for new electric or hybrid vehicles...in order to support UAW wages and Big 3 profits.

Instead, I think it's time to 1.) SLOW DOWN, 2.) Scale DOWN (yes...reduced comfort), 3.) CUT COSTS and 4.) work on a higher volume/lower profit...as it applies to (auto industry) consumers, manufacturers, workers, dealers, finance, service, etc.

If we did ALL of those things, the 3 wheeled motorcycle cars priced under $10,000 might just be adequate for local travel.

 

[montoyas7940]

all for a plant which Dell closed 18months later.

I could not confirm that the Dell plant in Nashville closed. I remember when
Dell closed the tech support operations in Nashville but I think the manufacturing
is still there.

 

[mgb_phys]

It was just googled from some Raleigh newspaper.
The point is that all states are very free with spending taxpayer's money to create jobs - even when it works out to have cost more per job than giving the worker a winning lottery ticket.

 

[jal]

If we did ALL of those things, the 3 wheeled motorcycle cars priced under $10,000 might just be adequate for local travel.

It works in other countries.
I guess that they will need to change a LOT of laws that have been made to favour the "car".
jal

 

[JasonRox]

Let them close down. That's my solution. Unsucessful businesses should die. We should not support dead end companies that can't sell their products.

 

[turbo]

Let them close down. That's my solution. Unsucessful businesses should die. We should not support dead end companies that can't sell their products.

My brother is a foreman for a company that produces custom extruded plastic products, and they will lose some business if the big 3 fail. They are a nimble and innovative little company, though, and they will survive. The gloom-and-doom scenario foisted by cheerleaders of the big 3 is unrealistic and short-sighted. This country went through WWII with severely truncated domestic industrial production, curtailed consumer spending, etc. and we did OK. Those of us who grew up in the 1950s know that even single-earner families with plenty of kids can do OK. We can do it again and recover from this downturn, as long as we don't let crooked and under-performing companies hold a gun to our heads demanding bailouts.

The money doled out to the financial entities has not resulted in economic relief in the "real world", nor will a big-3 bailout. It's just socialism for the rich, in which profit is privatized and risk is socialized. As a fiscal conservative, I am glad to see that enough Republicans were willing to try to kill the automotive bail-out, though I am sorely disappointed that they showed no such spine when hedge-funds and exotic derivatives proved to be so toxic.

 

[OmCheeto]

Did you see the price of the "plug-in Hybrid" mentioned in the article...$87,000.

I'm not sure who the market is going to be for such a vehicle or more importantly which banks will lend that much money for an automobile?

Rich people. Just like the Tesla Roadster.
The $87,000 price tag is for the http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/vehicles/features/".
It is the only car the company makes.

All Signature Edition Vehicles, which will be delivered with a special numbered and signed plaque, a color and trim combination similar to the Detroit Show-Car are SOLD OUT.

At this point in time we are still accepting deposits for the standard pre-orders ($1000 deposit amount) to be delivered in 2010. All orders received from mid-January onwards will be delivered in the second half of 2010.

...

0-60 in less than 6 seconds (0-100 km/h 6 seconds)
Top speed beyond 125 mph (200 km/h)

Odd that they made it a 4-door. Must be marketing to the baby makers in Hollywood.

But just like Tesla, the first model is just to catch everyone's eye.

May 13, 2008 9:44 AM PDT
Fisker Auto plans second electric sedan, seeks funds
Fisker anticipates that advances in battery technology will allow the company to offer a cheaper version at about $40,000 in about four or five years.

Regarding the Chevy Volt Plug in Hybrid:

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/
Over 200 engineers and 50 designers are working on the Volt alone...

I wonder what the engineer to designer ratio the Karma has?

Oh, and this is good(same url):

The Extended-Range Electric Vehicle that is redefining the automotive world is no longer just a rumor. In fact, its propulsion system is so revolutionary, it's unlike any other vehicle or electric car that's ever been introduced. And we're making this remarkable vision a reality, so that one day you'll have the freedom to drive gas-free.

My friend Myles built one o' them a couple years back, all by his lonesome. How come 200 hun'erd of these fella's take so long to get one one the road? Is they waitin' for somthin'?

 

[BobG]

Instead, I think it's time to 1.) SLOW DOWN, 2.) Scale DOWN (yes...reduced comfort), 3.) CUT COSTS and 4.) work on a higher volume/lower profit...as it applies to (auto industry) consumers, manufacturers, workers, dealers, finance, service, etc.

Reduced comfort? You mean buy something to drive instead of buying a mobile office/family entertainment center?

An SUV with a fax/copier/printer that you can plug your hands free cellular phone into would probably increase sales more... at least until gas prices go back to $4.00 a gallon and consumers become shocked at how auto makers could let this happen.

 

[mheslep]

Did you see the price of the "plug-in Hybrid" mentioned in the article...$87,000.

I'm not sure who the market is going to be for such a vehicle or more importantly which banks will lend that much money for an automobile?

Fisker is making a high end sports car; there's quite a few models in that range.

 

[mheslep]

...My friend Myles built one o' them a couple years back, all by his lonesome. How come 200 hun'erd of these fella's take so long to get one one the road? Is they waitin' for somthin'?

Somehow I doubt good o' Myles, all on his lonesome, built one that would last 10 years without battery replacement, would take 5000 charge cycles, had regenerative braking, and had 40 miles+ battery range without 1000 lbs of batteries.

 

[mgb_phys]

If you are a small company it's the only segment of the market you can hope to start in.
Individual hand built small production run items with a very high markup.
You could try going to the bank and asking for $10B to tool a plant to mass produce an electric vehicle for the masses and then do the R+D to make a small cheap light battery.

There will always be a few people able to pay for such a car.
It's why all the UK's mass production car makers have gone bust but Morgan still haev a three year waiting list for their hand built cars.

 

[RonL]

Well I guess my gut feelings are to let the big three go away, there will be other things that will fill the void, (like pulling a pen out of liquid water).
If those high powered upper management tycoons are as good as their pay represents, they will come back in some form, and is it likely they can generate new investments to start new plants ?

I really think the words "Built in The USA" needs to regain meaning to Americans. I am impressed with most foreign technologies, as I get to drive rental cars on a regular basis, I must be too easy to please, because almost everything I have driven would be a car I would consider owning.

What do most auto engineers drive? and are they not just a little embarrassed by how their work efforts are portrayed in the advertising market ? but then I have never TRIED to drive up a vertical wall or hill

One thing about electric power, there will be no real surprises, speed and torque will always be an exact trade off (or compromise). As consumers a new way of viewing what is needed on a day to day basis related to transportation, needs to be taught at some level, and demands to the auto makers to make options that fill the needs for a DULL & BORING go to work and pick up the groceries type of transportation vehicle.

Advertising will always win with an image of "A Sexy,Fast Pace lifestyle":!) but how and when will the reality wake-up call take place ? maybe it's just starting ALL markets respond to demand. What are WE DEMANDING ?

 

[baywax]

As consumers a new way of viewing what is needed on a day to day basis related to transportation, needs to be taught at some level, and demands to the auto makers to make options that fill the needs for a DULL & BORING go to work and pick up the groceries type of transportation vehicle.

Advertising will always win with an image of "A Sexy,Fast Pace lifestyle":!) but how and when will the reality wake-up call take place ? maybe it's just starting ALL markets respond to demand. What are WE DEMANDING ?

I think, for the most part, we are demanding four wheels that move without too much effort on the part of the occupant. One that doesn't rely on a really bloody war or on a fuel from a country that chops you're appendages off for looking at the opposite sex. Sound reasonable?

 

[Art]

Maybe all we really need are better bicycles, oh and flat roads to ride them on

 

[baywax]

Maybe all we really need are better bicycles, oh and flat roads to ride them on

Flat roads should be no problem. This type of engineering was figured out for the transNA railroads about 100 years ago. !

 

[Topher925]

Has anyone been looking at the Volt's competition? Even if GM does get their car out by 2010 and it does what is expected who is to say that the plug-in Prius (<$35,000) won't out perform it in both specs and also sales? Chrysler is done for, no matter what, and Ford is busy refitting its plants so they can finally catch up with the times by bringing in small fuel efficient cars. They are still years behind developing a plug-in hybrid for the next era of vehicles. Even if they get that bailout who is to say that they won't be filing chapter 11 a couple years later?

http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/

I think Ford should stop selling in North America and just focus on South America and Europe. Chrysler should just be left to die. GM should sell all their jets, fire the morons, and invest all they got in R&D in a last ditch effort to out due Toyota and Honda. That's the only way I see that any of these companies will survive.

 

[mgb_phys]

I think Ford should stop selling in North America and just focus on South America and Europe.

Ford should lobby for: No bailout to kill the competition and 100% tax breaks on big American trucks.
Then run ad campaigns saying you are unpatriotic child-molesting vegetarian if you drive anything foreign or weighing less than 3tons.

It then fires all it's auto workers, does a deal with Honda/Toyota/Whoever to rebadge the trucks made in their US plants and prays for low oil prices.

 

[baywax]

Has anyone been looking at the Volt's competition? Even if GM does get their car out by 2010 and it does what is expected who is to say that the plug-in Prius (<$35,000) won't out perform it in both specs and also sales? Chrysler is done for, no matter what, and Ford is busy refitting its plants so they can finally catch up with the times by bringing in small fuel efficient cars. They are still years behind developing a plug-in hybrid for the next era of vehicles. Even if they get that bailout who is to say that they won't be filing chapter 11 a couple years later?

http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/

I think Ford should stop selling in North America and just focus on South America and Europe. Chrysler should just be left to die. GM should sell all their jets, fire the morons, and invest all they got in R&D in a last ditch effort to out due Toyota and Honda. That's the only way I see that any of these companies will survive.

Totally good advice for the most part.

I'd buy the Volt from what I've seen of it. The Prius looks like a brick with a hatchback comparably speaking. I've advocated that the Oil companies re-invest their profits in R and D on renewables. Being ahead of the curve is the only place to be. Similarly with the auto-builders. Do it before someone else. America belongs in the lead!

 

[RonL]

Somehow I doubt good o' Myles, all on his lonesome, built one that would last 10 years without battery replacement, would take 5000 charge cycles, had regenerative braking, and had 40 miles+ range without 1000 lbs of batteries.

If your interested, I can produce a basic design to transform an old unused truck (101" wheel base, 23,500 GVWR) frame, springs and axles only, from there batteries and about 50hp of electric motors can be tucked inside the frame rails, which produces a very stable, almost unflippable machine, The shell of a full sized pickup, (with a little modification) will fit in such a way that other than the over size wheels, it would not look any different than original.
If you max out at 20,000 lbs, and 80% is power related, how far can you go on about 15,000 pounds of batteries (lead acid)? Possibly I don't see weight as too much of an issue, because I have driven heavy things slowly (55mph and under), most of my working life

I think the numbers above can be bettered, and for a price between $35,000 and $50,000.
10 times the life of a typical car or light pickup, because of those heavy capacity bearings, brakes, and big tires (to a large degree I believe we are victims of engineered odselences)
If anyone has an interest, and the ability to produce, or raise the money, for an effort of this type it might make a good project. (maybe a battery company would step up for some good advertisement)

A regular Pickup truck with a complete power pack in the bed, containing batteries, motors, controller, and quick disconnect options, would allow a conventional truck to be used as, All electric, Hybrid, or all fuel powered. The electric pack could be removed if the truck needed to serve as it was originally intended.

And all around there are people making their own conversions of cars and small trucks, using things that are already on the market, and in the price range of $7,500.

This is why I find it so hard to understand why an option or two is not presently available.

 

[RonL]

Maybe all we really need are better bicycles, oh and flat roads to ride them on

I have an electric bike, it peddles great of the flat, and the electric power is there to help buck the wind and climb most hills. total range on a charge is about 11 miles.
It really removes some of the challenges of bike riding.

 

[Topher925]

You're not an engineer are you Ron? Bigger size doesn't mean longer lasting. It means more money and more weight. We don't have options for electric/hybrid vehicles for most cars because its very expensive. Have you looked at the cost per mile of a Prius vs. an Accord? The Prius is only economically viable if the cost of gas is in the $4 dollar range. To build a 20,000 lbs. lead acid powered truck would just be asinine.

It really removes some of the challenges of bike riding.

Whats so challenging about riding a bike without electric power? I ride my bike uphill, and into the wind to school every day the whether is permitting. Its great exercise, saves money, saves gas, and is better for the environment. If my bike had a full enclosure around it I would ride it to school every day.

 

[drankin]

I have an electric bike, it peddles great of the flat, and the electric power is there to help buck the wind and climb most hills. total range on a charge is about 11 miles.
It really removes some of the challenges of bike riding.

Electric bikes are everywhere in China, at least where I visited near Shanghai. I was amazed that we don't see more of those here in the US. I would sure bike around more if I had power assist.

 

[RonL]

I think, for the most part, we are demanding four wheels that move without too much effort on the part of the occupant. One that doesn't rely on a really bloody war or on a fuel from a country that chops you're appendages off for looking at the opposite sex. Sound reasonable?

Our modern electronics are moving us in the right direction, get in, turn the key, and go. We will always have need for petroleum, it just needs to be separated from our basic driving needs.

 

[mheslep]

Has anyone been looking at the Volt's competition? Even if GM does get their car out by 2010 and it does what is expected who is to say that the plug-in Prius (<$35,000) won't out perform it in both specs and also sales?

That is always a possibility for any make, regardless of drive train technology. However, I have seen no indication thus far that anyone is ahead of GM for plugins. The absolutely critical technology is the battery, and the Prius thus far has experience only with Nickle metal hydride for its non-plugin hybrids. GM has been pushing the battery technology hard for PHEVs, and though they could certainly still blow it, for the moment they appear to have the lead on a real vehicle, at a high, but not ridiculous price.

Even if they get that bailout who is to say that they won't be filing chapter 11 a couple years later?

http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/28/volt-competition-mazdas-secret-e-rev-program-toyota-forwards-plug-in-fleet-to-2009/...

Chapter 11 by itself should not stop new car development. What will stop it is a failure of GM cut its losses via its labor costs, too many models, etc.

 

[mgb_phys]

Electric bikes are everywhere in China, at least where I visited near Shanghai. I was amazed that we don't see more of those here in the US. I would sure bike around more if I had power assist.

But then you wouldn't have the tiny butt and muscular thighs of us real cyclists - so you would have to buy an F350 to impress women - so back to square one.

 

[baywax]

Our modern electronics are moving us in the right direction, get in, turn the key, and go. We will always have need for petroleum, it just needs to be separated from our basic driving needs.

Yes, where would we be without nylon, plastic and vaseline?

 

[mgb_phys]

Yes, where would we be without nylon, plastic and vaseline?

All alone on saturday night?

 

[JasonRox]

My brother is a foreman for a company that produces custom extruded plastic products, and they will lose some business if the big 3 fail. They are a nimble and innovative little company, though, and they will survive. The gloom-and-doom scenario foisted by cheerleaders of the big 3 is unrealistic and short-sighted. This country went through WWII with severely truncated domestic industrial production, curtailed consumer spending, etc. and we did OK. Those of us who grew up in the 1950s know that even single-earner families with plenty of kids can do OK. We can do it again and recover from this downturn, as long as we don't let crooked and under-performing companies hold a gun to our heads demanding bailouts.

The money doled out to the financial entities has not resulted in economic relief in the "real world", nor will a big-3 bailout. It's just socialism for the rich, in which profit is privatized and risk is socialized. As a fiscal conservative, I am glad to see that enough Republicans were willing to try to kill the automotive bail-out, though I am sorely disappointed that they showed no such spine when hedge-funds and exotic derivatives proved to be so toxic.

I'm glad your on the same page.

The pain will be worth it.

 

[Topher925]

But then you wouldn't have the tiny butt and muscular thighs of us real cyclists - so you would have to buy an F350 to impress women - so back to square one.

 

[mheslep]

Have you looked at the cost per mile of a Prius vs. an Accord? The Prius is only economically viable if the cost of gas is in the $4 dollar range. To build a 20,000 lbs. lead acid powered truck would just be asinine.

Well lowering the price/gallon extends the payback time, maybe making it infinite. A Prius supposedly takes http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/environment/2008-05-11-hybrids-gas-prices_N.htm". Double that to 76k mi for $1.80/gal. There are some stupidly expensive hybrids that would require 200k miles to theoretically break even (which because of the time value of money, really, it never does).

 

[DrClapeyron]

Unions will definitely lose their pension funds if the so called Big Three are not bailed out. This bail out means giving money to the automakers to make payments to unions who can make pension payments to their retired members.

The largest pension funds in this country are taking huge hits which means current benefactors must take the hit. California's Calpers lost some $40 billion dollars within the past 6 months, 20% of the fund's total value.

Automakers can definitely operate in debt, no doubt about it, our country operates in debt and has done so for almost 20 years. Why bail out now? A mass explosion of retirements brought on by the baby boomer generation will force both higher pension fund payouts and higher social security payouts. That was the hot topic of the 1990's, social security reform, and we've been seeing it in the news for at least the past 10 years that automakers (and other industrials ie airlines) cannot make the outrageous payments to pension funds (or unions) and not indebt themselves. We saw this one heading from a mile away.

I guess it comes down to this: how much do you love grandpa?

 

[Proton Soup]

I guess it comes down to this: how much do you love grandpa?

all of my grandparents are dead. they can draw social security, just like lots of other people's grandparents.

 

[baywax]

All alone on saturday night?

Or talking to the robot made of hemp products.

 

[BobG]

Unions will definitely lose their pension funds if the so called Big Three are not bailed out. This bail out means giving money to the automakers to make payments to unions who can make pension payments to their retired members.

The largest pension funds in this country are taking huge hits which means current benefactors must take the hit. California's Calpers lost some $40 billion dollars within the past 6 months, 20% of the fund's total value.

Automakers can definitely operate in debt, no doubt about it, our country operates in debt and has done so for almost 20 years. Why bail out now? A mass explosion of retirements brought on by the baby boomer generation will force both higher pension fund payouts and higher social security payouts. That was the hot topic of the 1990's, social security reform, and we've been seeing it in the news for at least the past 10 years that automakers (and other industrials ie airlines) cannot make the outrageous payments to pension funds (or unions) and not indebt themselves. We saw this one heading from a mile away.

I guess it comes down to this: how much do you love grandpa?

all of my grandparents are dead. they can draw social security, just like lots of other people's grandparents.

Actually, if the Big-3 bails on the pensions, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation picks up the tab. That results in a reduction of pension benefits for the highest paid employees. There's also a worry that the PBGC could run out of money in a major economic crisis since it's currently underfunded. That means the government could still wind up bailing out autoworker pensions even if Congress doesn't approve the bailout (it would still be a lot less than the bailout unless we're talking a Great Depression type crisis where lots of companies fail.

The impact of reduced car sales are already being felt. Atmel in Colorado Springs just laid off 11% of its workers yesterday, in addition to the workers they laid off in France. They make memory chips and microcontrollers, with demand for microcontrollers used in automobiles down substantially. This is in response to reduced car sales in general, not the chance of the big-3 folding.

It was my daughter's first experience with company layoffs. She didn't get laid off, but they used a pretty brutal method to lay folks off. They all gathered in one room and if they called your name, you still had a job and should head back to the production area. If they didn't call your name, they'd escort you down to the HR department to pick up your severance pay on your way immediately out the door (without passing Go). Getting her name called somewhere in the middle gave her the chance to experience both ends: first watching the chances of having a job slowly decrease with each person that left the room and then waiting in the production area to see who showed up and who didn't.

I think that's a pretty cruel way of doing things. When the company I worked for laid people off, they actually talked to them privately before announcing the lay offs to the rest of the workers. They also let everyone know about three weeks before the lay offs (actually, it was supposed to be a month before, but I worked for a subcontractor and the manager quit, followed by my company being stripped from the contract completely, so there were some delays). There's always a chance a company is going to want those workers back someday, if possible, so doing things with a little dignity has some advantages.

 

[RonL]

You're not an engineer are you Ron? Bigger size doesn't mean longer lasting. It means more money and more weight. We don't have options for electric/hybrid vehicles for most cars because its very expensive. Have you looked at the cost per mile of a Prius vs. an Accord? The Prius is only economically viable if the cost of gas is in the $4 dollar range. To build a 20,000 lbs. lead acid powered truck would just be asinine.



Whats so challenging about riding a bike without electric power? I ride my bike uphill, and into the wind to school every day the whether is permitting. Its great exercise, saves money, saves gas, and is better for the environment. If my bike had a full enclosure around it I would ride it to school every day.

I certainly didn't think anyone was mistaking me for a professional or degreed engineer I am neither, and would not even make the claim of being a good one, but having worked alone with heavy equipment, I have saved quite a bit of money over the years by working with things laying around or putting together things that assist lifting and moving, and working where most people would pay some service company to come in and perform the effort.
If a need for 5hp is present and all that is at hand are two 3.5hp motors, they are coupled together and deliver power to do the job, is that not engineering? I have spent a fair amount of money buying things to play with and with no expectation of a return on my investment, there is a goal but no timeline imposed as it's for the most part, just fun stuff.

A warrenty on the big rigs covers some things for up to 500,000 miles, not sure where bearings and brakes fall in, but I have never replaced bearings on any large truck I have operated, but then I didn't drive over the road long hauls.

I don't ride the bike much, so the challange for me starts about two blocks from the house