Autsim -many people does not care

[arildno]

Extended consciousness is not necessarily directly correlated with intelligence, Damasio (from what I've read so far) mentions internal verbalization as being integral for extended consciousness, that is being able to carry out a stream of consciousness mode, which is natural for most people.. The child with autism may have core consciousness, they may even intellecutually realize their existence, but it's not fully realized

This is a fantasy of Dr. Damasio's.
He doesn't have access to anyone else's consciousness than his own, and is therefore merely speculating on what's going on, or not going on inside the autistic child's head.
Typical psychologist's pathologizing blah-blah.

 

[GCT]

Again, core consciousness v.s. extended consciousness...Damasio's theory.

 

[Mickey]

Alright, that link was to a video of a boy with autism who scored 20 points in 4 minutes in a high school basketball game.

How socially conscious do you have to be to do that? More than I've ever been. ;)

 

[Kurdt]

Well whatever basketball is I'm sure you don't have to be that socially aware to play at all, or indeed with any sport. Would you call all sportsmen autistic?

 

[Mickey]

Well whatever basketball is I'm sure you don't have to be that socially aware to play at all, or indeed with any sport. Would you call all sportsmen autistic?

Uh... that's an eerily smarmy question.

Basketball, if you've never heard of it, is a team sport. That means it requires some level of teamwork. And teamwork requires some level of social awareness.

You didn't watch the video. :/

I copied it wrong the second time, so here it is again:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-818944862742874918&q=autistic

 

[GCT]

arildno, I believe that Dr. Damasio has a good working hypothesis in explaining consciousness, ideas of what "consciousness" is has always been way out there so to speak, too abstract.

The topic of autism generates a wide spectrum of responses with regard to a sympathetic reaction, but the typical response with autistic individuals is to treat them on some retarded level, treat them as incapacitated and unfortunate and yet when one asks the question of whether they're conscious, the general attitutde is that they are. This establishes that some of these people have absolutely no basis in their opinions and are essentially clueless since they don't see the contradiction.

I've delved into psychology during my undergradute years a bit, and autism struck me as particularly interesting. Most people aren't able to graps the unfortunate aspect of autism, and its premise. If autistic individuals had consciousness, they would have some hope of integrating themselves into this world; to finally learn from past experiences for self maturation, and to then experience the world further for themselves. The fact that some have normal or even superior IQs, and yet will not see the world any differently from an early age till the day they die explains that problem of autism has to do with a fundamental deprivation of consciousness, which most people aren't able to acknoweldge nor wish to do so. They were born into a world, and they'll leave without knowing it.

Autistic individuals can interact with the world, such as being able to play sports systematically, but they'll never see it as real. That is, not much really matters to an autistic mind, the fact that even they have a future to prepare for. Mental retardation itself has to do with deficiency in the ability to perform on intellectual tasks. What distinguishes autism, is the social deficiency, however it is also the inability to integrate information over lengths of time, even if they can maintain themselves through a basketball game (certainly not the whole basketball game, in reference to the video Mickey has mentioned) they won't get anything out of it, to grow from the experience. There's no process of maturation, everything becomes cut short. Autistic individuals can understand threats on some level, but as all of you may know, this merely requires a moment of identification and a slight sense of urgency in the protocol of what one is supposed to do. One might, let's say feel a bit nervous speaking in front of public, there's a general urgency of a "threat," however, one will need to become aware of their environment and their appearance throughout the speech, so they have to constantly monitor themselves (an example of extended consciousness). One can always see the threat, however, if there's no awareness of things, then what results is debilitation. Damasio may not agree with defining "awareness" in this context, he probably sees it has much more simple mechanism.

 

[Kurdt]

Uh... that's an eerily smarmy question.

Basketball, if you've never heard of it, is a team sport. That means it requires some level of teamwork. And teamwork requires some level of social awareness.

You didn't watch the video. :/

I copied it wrong the second time, so here it is again:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-818944862742874918&q=autistic

Dude I was just jesting. Anyway my point was that you don't have to be socially integrated with the members of a team to perform well on the pitch or court or whatever you're playing. I was a member of a football team for many years and was socially excluded from the others but I could still play well with them on the pitch. I was just thinking perhaps there is something about the rules of engagement for sport which make it easier for autistic people. That or just the fact that he's damned good allows the others to be more tolerant of his eccentricities off the court.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

arildno, I believe that Dr. Damasio has a good working hypothesis in explaining consciousness, ideas of what "consciousness" is has always been way out there so to speak, too abstract.

There's a good reason for those ideas being abstract. Does Dr. Damasio provide concrete metrics?

I see my son's lack of social skills as a symptom of his autism, not the autism itself. I see autism as an neurological disorder, not a psychological one. It seems that all the signals reach the brain, but the brain has trouble to sort signal from noise. This goes by the name "sensory integrative disfunction". Examples of signal to noise issues are:

Some react negatively to touch, sound, and other sensory input as if they were reacting to unpleasant noise.
Some repeat motions, as if to increase signal over noise.
Some are soothed by being stroked in a single direction rather than back and forth, similar to repetitive motion.

I don't think that spurious signals are created in the brain, as would be the case in a psychiatric or psychological disorder.

 

[GCT]

Yes, autism is more fundamental then psychological disorders. There may be a lot of validity in the issue you've raised regarding signal to noise, however, autistic children's minds are usually in a constant state, despite their environment. So even though they may be in an empty room, it appears that they are still preoccupied with sensing these "signals" when most would undersatnd that there's nothing really there to begin with, no stimuli in any form, except for those generated by their own agendas, they're trapped in their own world (to a lesser or greater extent). This suggests to me that their minds are fundamentally disconnected, although not totally, there's no appreciation for the consciousness, so I don't believe that it is due to them being feeble minded which means that normal interactions are too much for them. There's an immediate mis-interpretation, without any prior appropriate and adequate sensing of the situation. They are not really sensing anything, the situation becomes assessed as threatening without any experience. Their experience is fundamentally different from a mind with a normal level of consciousness, it's totally without any external basis.

Most people cannot point out what exactly is it that makes autism what it is, besides the apparent lack of social interest, even with mental retardation it is an issue with IQ, it can be understood more directly, but it is undeniable that there is a lack of component of something with people with autism but it is less tangible. I believe that it is an incapacity for consciousness in general, that is something that is much more base.

One might say that the etiology is in the mechanics of the system, such as the topic of signal/noise, however, I believe that there's something that connects the human mind directly with the environment, this seems to be what we can essentially deem as consciousness, it is the why in reality. And I believe that autism is a particular case where a great aspect of consciousness has been denied to the individual's mind. Autistic minds are conscious, they can sense themselves, and their near proximity, it is as if they're trapped inside of their own minds however, which is what makes the disorder truly poignant. I don't believe that there's a mechanism that can be isolated, or even a couple of mechanisms to dispel the autistic symptoms, as you've said it's grossly neurological.

 

[Mickey]

Sorry, Kurdt, I didn't know if you were a foreigner or something.

The video clearly shows that this boy is into basketball. He's motivated by it. He supported his team off the court through the season, and because of that support, he got his chance to suit up, and then he stepped up to the opportunity. He knew when he was "on fire" and "hot as a pistol."

Autistic individuals appear to have the potential for very exclusive interests. The social world doesn't interest them, so their behavior doesn't change as a result, but allow them the freedom to follow their interest, and draw out detailed architectural plans for an imaginary city or some other thing, and they go for it. Of course, their interests may not always be that newsworthy, but if they can be so specific than perhaps they are very difficult to recognize and engage.

They don't have to be savants or socially competent to have potential to be passionate about something.Also, I've read some Damasio (Descartes' Error and The Feeling of What Happens), and I think he has, for the moment, too much of a medicinal bias. In all the talk about consciousness pathology, he seems to get carried away and forget or ignore just how diverse the healthy population is. I suppose it's just a sign of the infancy of consciousness science, that he must rely on the sick in order to create a model of the healthy.

It's a good sign that cheaper and more prevalent non-invasive scanning technologies are giving us a broader approach.

 

[Kurdt]

It is interesting to note that many individuals with high functioning autism or aspergers are professional in the field of mathematics and physics. This means that barring those with the most severe symptoms autistic people of course have the capability of integrating into society. I believe it is just the ignorance and intolerance of other individuals that hold a lot of other quite capable autistic indiciduals back. Like Mickey says if they are given the right support and encouragement they should excel whether or not the social side with others is fulfilled and others should see the positive contribution and respect the fact that social things may make the autistic person uncomfortable. I certainly do not subscribe to these consciousness theories of Damasio as in my experience they seem wildly unfounded.

 

[GCT]

no, the main symptom of autism is that they do not come out of their world or that they aren't able to consciously sense the world with nearly the same capacity as normally functioning individuals. The disorder isn't due to environmental stressors. And there are no autistic or asperger individuals who are independently mathematicians or physicists.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

there are no autistic or asperger individuals who are independently mathematicians or physicists.

How could you know that?

 

[Pythagorean]

There is one aspect that distinctively separates autistic children from all others...they lack a component of awareness; and it isn't too excessive to say that they have been deprived of consciousness, but perhaps not core consciousness.

There isn't too much of a problem with recognition, some have normal and even superior IQs, however it's almost as if they have much briefer periods of consciousness, or it's somehow relatively more intermitten. Extended consciousness is the main problem, it's a problem with integration of information for longer periods of time such as to suffice the world to become "real."

Before I pose my questin, let me tell you what conceptual layment understanding I have of the brain. It comes from a book "The Brains of Men and Machines" that basically explains how the brain works in terms of a computer so that an electrical engineer can understand it. (It's basically an A.I. book).

In it, the author describes basically a grid of operating centers. The x-axis of the grid represents the three different types of brain 'operations': input (sensory), computation (goal selection), and output (motor control). And the y-axis of the grid represents the different levels. So a single brain can compute sensory, decisions, and actions on several different levels, and that's the basic heirarchy of the 'operating system' in the brain.

Is what you're referring to, by consciousness, the higher of the goal selection or sensory input, or the higher functions in general?

If this concept of the brain is correct, could you explain autism in these terms?

 

[Kurdt]

I know of at least one physicist with aspergers syndrome. I also remember reading a study about the careers that aspergers sufferers most often chose to go into and at the top was mathematics then physics. If I find the study I will post the link but it was a few years ago that I saw it.

 

[arildno]

Well, all I hear is so many glib (and derogatory) statements that autists don't care about their social world or that they have more of an animal consciousness than a fully mature human consciousness.

What if autists are in grip of a paralyzing dread for the "outer" world, so that they simply don't dare to interact with it OTHER THAN IN WAYS THAT SEEM COMPLETELY SAFE TO THEM?
That is, why should we think their basic mental faculties are impaired in any way whatsoever, and that, rather, the reason why they don't seem to learn much, is that they don't dare to learn?


IMO, such a dread can explain much of those features with autists that often is regarded as "puzzling" with them:
1. That they seem perfectly able to learn difficult arcana
2. That they often can show a passionate attachment to SOME persons (typically in their families).

Furthermore, I believe such a dread perfectly well might have a neurological basis (and not at all the result of a "bad" upbringing).

To give one way of thinking of this:
It is certainly advantageous for any creature to be somewhat wary of their surroundings.
After all, dangers lurk about, and to have one wits about oneself is crucial.

However, equally important, is that events that repeat without harm, or environments that do not over time display danger signals, those events ought to instill in us a TRUST that they are, in fact, safe. Otherwise, our mind becomes fruitlessly wasted on non-existing dangers (rather than used for joy-seeking, or avoidance of REAL dangers).


What would happen to a creature or child if that experience-based instilment of trust went awry?
Wouldn't it sort of live in perpetual terror?

For example, wouldn't it then be paramount to you to try to recreate precisely those few situations that earlier showed themselves to be safe?
That is, wouldn't it be logical and natural to engage in behaviour that for the outsider seems obsessively repetitive and ritualistic?

From this perspective, one might regard autists as having the FULL HUMAN RANGE of emotions desires and mental capabilities, but that they are placed in an unenviable situation of constantly having to fight for mental composure and the sense of security we "normals" take for granted.
If we ever were to be placed in their situation, we would behave exactly like they do:
Try as best we can to gain that level of personal confidence and security that would allow us to go on with our lives to new experiences. (Alternatively, if the dread becomes overpowering, we'll huddle in a corner)

Just my two cents..

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

What if autists are in grip of a paralyzing dread for the "outer" world, so that they simply don't dare to interact with it OTHER THAN IN WAYS THAT SEEM COMPLETELY SAFE TO THEM?

You are describing a psychological problem (dread). If the brain has trouble sorting out pleasant stimuli from irritating noise, then a certain dread of ordinary contact may result. This is a symptom, not the disease.
A lot of treatment for autism concentrates on the symptoms. I expect this is because a) they are easy to identify and b) they are distressing to the family. In my opinion however, it would be better to work on the disease itself. My policy is to reinforce signal in order to create pathways in the brain. For example: Stroking in the same direction, not back and forth. Singing rounds. Repeating stock answers to stock questions. Providing chewing gum.

 

[arildno]

Well, as I see it, dread would be the natural psychological response to a fault in the habituation chemistry&neurology of the brain:

In habit-formation, we essentially slacken our attention and relax, and free our mind to occupy ourselves with other stuff, for example learning new stuff.
If, for example. we had the need to pay complete attention to every deed we do, every perception we receive, every word we utter, we would really be able to accomplish practically nothing!
We NEED habits in order to learn other things, or interact with the world in fruitful ways.

However, since habituation first and foremost is to "let go" and not to pay attention to what one is doing, it is integrally related to having a "trust" in that it is safe for us to do so. We need not remain on guard.


On a neorological/chemical level, that habituation feature may well be connected with specific regulatory proteins or in how synapses are made.(We gain a signal that "we know this/it's safe")
Possibly, once neuro-chemistry becomes more advanced, it might be possible to develop a medication that ease the formation of synapses and habituation to and trust in the world around.

I do not see any theoretical need for regarding autists as being primarily defective in cognitive or emotional capabilities.

(Also note that the main difference between enacting a ritual and doing something by habit is that when enacting a ritual we expend immense attention to it in order to get every detail right, whereas actions by habit are only half-attended to, and it doesn't matter too much if it the result turns out slightly different than before. A ritual, however, has failed if we do not exactly reproduce its previous instantiation).


Your strategy seems to optimize habit-formation, or create (and maintain!) pathways in the brain, as you said it. I think it makes a lot of sense.

 

[larkspur]

New study reguarding Autism

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/09/04/autism.dads.age.ap/index.html"

Men who become fathers in their 40s or older are much more likely to have autistic children than younger dads, a new study released Monday shows, bolstering evidence that genetics contributes to the mental disorder.

 

[Evo]

Interesting article larkspur! I wonder what further studies will show?

 

[larkspur]

Interesting article larkspur! I wonder what further studies will show?

I thought it was interesting too and hope it will help to uncover the etiology of autism someday.

 

[Mk]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/09/04/autism.dads.age.ap/index.html"

Men who become fathers in their 40s or older are much more likely to have autistic children than younger dads, a new study released Monday shows, bolstering evidence that genetics contributes to the mental disorder.

Don't wait to make babies!