Axiom of choice question (small index set)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Axiom of Choice (AC) in the context of finite and small index sets, specifically addressing the implications of having an index set of size one or finite. Participants are exploring the necessity of AC for defining choice functions and the conditions under which it is applicable.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the meaning of a remark regarding the triviality of AC for an index set of size one, indicating confusion about the explanation provided.
  • Another participant explains that for finite index sets, a choice function can be defined by listing values, which does not require AC, as this can be accomplished using other axioms of set theory.
  • A participant expresses concern about the process of determining the output of the choice function, suggesting that even for finite sets, a method for deciding each output is necessary.
  • Another participant prompts further exploration by asking how to prove the existence of a choice function for a one-element index set, questioning the non-emptiness of the set of choice functions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that AC is not needed for finite index sets, but there is uncertainty regarding the implications for countably infinite sets and the specific requirements for defining choice functions.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully resolved the details of how to prove the existence of choice functions, particularly for the one-element index set, and there are assumptions about the definitions and conditions under which AC applies that remain unexamined.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying set theory, particularly the Axiom of Choice and its applications in defining choice functions for various types of index sets.

Jerbearrrrrr
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Hi there,
just wondering what this could mean:

"Remark: AC is trivial for |I|=1, since A non-empty means [tex]\exists x[/tex] st [tex]x \in A[/tex]. Similarly for |I| finite (induction on |I|)."

I is the index set. As in, our sets are {A_i with i in I}.

I'm really not sure what this explanation is getting at.

Thanks
 
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For axiom of choice you need to define a function (choice function) with domain I . If I is finite you can define a function by listing all its values. This already can be done based on the other axioms of set theory, so AC is not needed in this case.
 
Oh right. I thought there was some problem in choosing what the output of the function was.
Okay then, thanks.
If I is countably infinite, you can also specify the function with a list though, surely?
You need a way of deciding what each f(i)=. But even if I is finite, you still need a way of deciding what each f(i)=.
Need help D:

(I understand that the AC isn't needed in choosing from well-ordered sets, so I thought the issue was just deciding how to pick the f(i))
 
Try working through the details of the one-element index set. How, exactly, do you prove that a choice function exists?

Or, to phrase it differently, how do you prove the set of choice functions is non-empty?
 

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