Bose-Einstein condensation in the canonical ensemble

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the challenges of modeling a non-interacting bosonic field at finite temperature, particularly in the context of Bose-Einstein condensation and the limitations of the grand-canonical ensemble below the critical temperature. Participants explore alternative approaches, including the canonical ensemble and various methods to address particle-number fluctuations in the ground state.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • John highlights the issue of unphysical particle-number fluctuations in the ground state when using the grand-canonical ensemble below the critical temperature, suggesting a need for alternative methods.
  • One participant suggests considering the Gross-Pitaevskii equation as a potential solution, questioning whether it suffers from similar fluctuations.
  • Another participant references W. Thirring's work and the Bogoliubov method, which involves adding a symmetry breaking term and performing the thermodynamic limit, as a way to address the fluctuations.
  • John expresses skepticism about the applicability of the Gross-Pitaevskii equation and Bogoliubov method to a non-interacting gas, seeking clarification on their relevance.
  • There is a discussion about the specific content of Thirring's book, with participants trying to locate the relevant sections that discuss the proposed methods.
  • One participant asserts that simply replacing the annihilation operator for the ground state with a constant does not eliminate fluctuations, suggesting that 2-body interactions are necessary for this purpose.
  • Another participant disagrees, stating that Thirring's argument includes the symmetry breaking term and can be applied without introducing interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the Gross-Pitaevskii equation and the Bogoliubov method to non-interacting gases. There is no consensus on whether it is possible to eliminate fluctuations without introducing interactions, as some participants argue for the necessity of interactions while others believe it can be done without them.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific literature and methods, indicating a reliance on various interpretations and applications of theoretical frameworks. The discussion reflects a complex interplay of ideas and uncertainties regarding the modeling of bosonic systems.

JK423
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Hello guys,
I would really need some help on the following problem.

Consider a non-interacting & non-relativistic bosonic field at finite temperature. We are all aware of the fact that such a statistical system is well described by the grand-canonical ensemble in the limit N→∞. However, there is a temperature -the critical temperature- below which a quantum phase transition takes place and a finite fraction of the bosons occupy the ground state. Now here's the problem:

I realized that the grand-canonical ensemble, below the critical temperature, gives huge and unphysical particle-number fluctuations in the ground state due to the fact that the latter is occupied by a large number of bosons. In other words, if we calculate the variance of the ground state occupation number (i.e. \left\langle {N_0^2} \right\rangle - {\left\langle {{N_0}} \right\rangle ^2}) we will get a really big number comparable to the number of bosons that occupy the ground state. This is a known pathological behaviour of the grand-canonical ensemble for temperatures below the critical and is in sharp contrast to the (correct) canonical ensemble.

For reasons related to the project i am working on, i want to get rid of this pathological behaviour. How can i do that? A first thought is to directly use the canonical ensemble, but then the calculations get to be impossible even numerically! It seems to me that i can, in no way, approach the problem using the canonical ensemble, neither analytically nor numerically.

Do you have any suggestions? Perhaps you're aware of a way working with the canonical ensemble analytically below the critical temperature using a method that i don't know of?

Thank you in advance for any help you can give me.
John
 
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Does the Gross-Pitaevskii equation suffer from the large particle fluctuations? You might consider using this equation if not, unless there is a particular reason you need to work with the statistical ensembles.
 
For a precise analysis of the problem, have a look at W. Thirring, Lehrbuch der Mathematischen Physik, Vol. 4, Quantenmechanik grosser Systeme (There exists also an English version) Chapter 2.5.
The solution he describes is known as Bogoliubov method to add an extra symmetry breaking term, perform the thermodynamic limit and then take the limit where the symmetry breaking term goes to 0 in that order.
In praxis this means to replace the anihilation operator for the ground state a_0 by a constant.
This was first worked out by Beliaev.
I found the following new article which should contain relevant references:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.5471
 
Thank you both for your feedback!

I think both of the approaches you propose, GP eq. and Bogoliubov method, refer to a gas with 2-body interactions and not to a non-interacting gas. Is that correct?
DrDu i checked Thirring's book, Ch 2.5 but i didn't find anything relevant.. Can you please tell me how the section is called in case i missed it?
 
JK423 said:
Thank you both for your feedback!

I think both of the approaches you propose, GP eq. and Bogoliubov method, refer to a gas with 2-body interactions and not to a non-interacting gas. Is that correct?
DrDu i checked Thirring's book, Ch 2.5 but i didn't find anything relevant.. Can you please tell me how the section is called in case i missed it?

Strange. Momentarily I don't have the book at hand. I think I looked for "Bose ..." in the register.

Bogoliubovs method is not restricted to interacting gasses.
 
DrDu said:
Bogoliubovs method is not restricted to interacting gasses.
Really? I'm really interested..!
This is the book i checked,
http://en.bookfi.org/book/773282 .
Whenever you have time please show me where this method is presented..
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Page 138 ff
 
Thank you DrDu.
Previously you proposed,
DrDu said:
The solution he describes is known as Bogoliubov method to add an extra symmetry breaking term, perform the thermodynamic limit and then take the limit where the symmetry breaking term goes to 0 in that order.
In praxis this means to replace the anihilation operator for the ground state a_0 by a constant.
as a solution to get rid of the unphysical fluctuations of the grand-canonical ensemble in the condensate phase. I am not sure that's what Thirring does on that page (although I'm not certain because his notation is all so different and confusing). First of all, just replacing the a_0 by a constant doesn't kill the fluctuations in the condensate phase, i tried that. I checked the literature, like Pitaevskii, Leggett and others, and they all say that the only way to kill the fluctuations is to insert 2-body interactions, and then apply the Bogoliubov method you mentioned. Noone reports a way to do all this without introducing interactions so i think it's not possible. Do you agree with all these?
 
No, I don't agree. I checked yesterday the argument by Thirring.
I meant not only page 138 but also following ones. He explicitly introduces the symmetry breaking term in (2.5,51;5) to use his notation - I hope it coincides with the German edition.
 

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