Braking spacecraft in a snow-filled tank?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of using a snow-filled tank as a braking mechanism for payloads landing on the Moon, comparing it to other materials like water and regolith. Participants explore various aspects of the proposed method, including penetration models, stopping distances, and the properties of snow as a braking medium.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that using snow as a braking medium could reduce braking pressures significantly compared to water or regolith.
  • Concerns are raised about the accuracy of the estimated braking pressure of 12 MPa for snow at 1.7 km/s, with a request for relevant software or equations to model penetration in this scenario.
  • Another participant questions the potential for the payload container to veer off course during braking and discusses the idea of using fin-stabilization for guidance.
  • There is a discussion about the density of snow produced by typical snow-making machines, with one participant inquiring about methods to create lower-density snow suitable for the braking system.
  • Participants discuss the necessity of an input shutter to prevent loss of braking medium and explore alternative designs.
  • One participant mentions the need for a small amount of hydrazine for deorbiting and guidance, questioning the feasibility of a fully inert container.
  • Several participants engage in a technical debate regarding the calculation of stopping distances and the appropriateness of the penetration estimation formula used, with differing opinions on its applicability at high speeds.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the accuracy and applicability of the penetration model and stopping distance calculations. There is no consensus on the best approach to estimate braking pressures or the effectiveness of the proposed snow-filled tank method.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the current understanding of penetration models at high speeds and the challenges of achieving the desired snow density for effective braking. The discussion remains open-ended with unresolved technical details.

trurle
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Reading recently a Russian MOD aerospace journal, i stumbled upon (pretty unrealistic) scheme to hard-land payloads (metal ingots) on moon.
It involve catching 1.7 km/s slugs with the pipe filled by regolith or water, and even more hardcore option of digging up the payloads embedded in the Moon```'s natural regolith layers.
Well, the approach and materials have severe problems.
1) Braking pressures are too high (~0.3 GPa for water, and ~0.4 GPa for fine regolith) - therefore for most payloads soft-landing is more mass-effective option even assuming the payload is surviving.
2) Regolith is too good heat insulator, resulting in large cycle time and may be even regolith sintering/fusing to payload
3) Water is poorly compressible, producing a large pressure spike (water hammer effect)

After thinking a bit, seems "payload trap" filling with loose (40 kg/m3) snow may be much better.
a) The braking pressure is much lower at ~12 MPa
b) The over-pressure pulse is partially dissipated by breaking and melting snowflakes, transmitting less energy on "payload trap" walls.

Severe doubts are remaining. Could anybody help with the items below?
1) Penetration model is very far extrapolation (from the high density bullets striking sand bags to large low-density containers striking snow at double velocity). Is any relevant software/equation for estimating pressures in such impact scenario? I suspect 12 MPa braking pressure for 40 kg/m3 snow at 1.7km/s is not an accurate estimation.
2) Payload container veering off course and colliding with trap wall may be a problem. I can imagine fin-stabilized container self-guiding in core of denser snow supported by less dense snow envelope, but would it be sufficient? Any thoughts about path stabilization at such violent braking?
3) Is it plausible to make low-density snow similar to natural one? Typical snow-making machines which are designed for high throughput produce snow about 450 kg/m3, which is likely too dense for purpose. Ice block grinding method produce snow of ~250 kg/m3. Are any methods for lower-density snow?
4) Is the input shutter to prevent large loss of braking medium (snow?) necessary? Any design alternative to shutter? Need to prevent somehow braking medium from being ejected from input aperture each time a container is received.
5) Likely still need about 1-3% of container to be hydrazine for deorbit from storage orbit and fine guidance. Any chance to develop a fully inert container still hitting a small (few meters at most) aperture?
 

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How did you calculate the stopping distance (or, closely linked, the acceleration)?
 
mfb said:
How did you calculate the stopping distance (or, closely linked, the acceleration)?
Yes. It was not in the summary sheet because it was an array depending on transfer orbit.
Roughly 235 calibers (for 3 g/cm3 spherical containers) for low orbits.
 
Where does that number come from?

Having an unguided bullet approach a base at orbital speeds with an error margin of a few centimeters doesn't sound very safe, by the way.
 
mfb said:
Where does that number come from?

Having an unguided bullet approach a base at orbital speeds with an error margin of a few centimeters doesn't sound very safe, by the way.
I use for penetration estimation equation
PenetrationCalibers=2*(2800/DensityOfBrakeMedium)*(DensityOfContainer/9000)*(Speed/750)^2

Regarding guidance margin, i also think the container must be guided. Even in that case, with current technologies margins may be meters.
 
That formula can't work well for high speeds. I would expect 1.7 km/s to be high in that context. It is also weird that it uses the width not the length of the projectile.
 
mfb said:
That formula can't work well for high speeds. I would expect 1.7 km/s to be high in that context. It is also weird that it uses the width not the length of the projectile.
The measurement of penetration in projectile widths is common in ballistics. Anyway, for this particular calculation the projectile (container) is spherical therefore width and length are the same.
Apart from generic doubts on accuracy (which i also have) do you have better penetration equations?
 
I don't have better equations. 1.7 km/s is too fast to use formulas for typical guns but too slow for high velocity approximations (e.g. what matters for most impacts on the ISS).
 

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