Breakdown of Planck's Law under certain Conditions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions under which Planck's Law may break down, particularly focusing on low temperatures and small blackbody cavity sizes. Participants explore the differences between Planck's Law and Rayleigh-Jeans' Law, the implications of cavity size on blackbody radiation, and the assumptions underlying Planck's Law.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the average energy per mode differs between Rayleigh-Jeans' Law and Planck's Law, with implications for blackbody radiation.
  • One participant asserts that Planck's Law will not break down under any circumstances, while acknowledging that violations can occur if underlying assumptions do not hold.
  • Another participant claims that Planck's Law is violated in certain practical applications, such as LED bulbs.
  • Some participants argue that the breakdown occurs not in Planck's Law itself but in the approximation of a cavity as an ideal blackbody when the cavity is too small.
  • Concerns are raised about the assumption of a continuous energy spectrum in the derivation of Planck's Law, with some suggesting that at low temperatures and small cavity sizes, the spectrum may not be quasi-continuous, leading to significant deviations from Planck's Law.
  • Questions are posed regarding the specific conditions (size and temperature) under which deviations from Planck's Law become significant.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether Planck's Law itself breaks down or if the breakdown is related to the approximations used in modeling blackbody radiation. There is no consensus on the conditions that lead to deviations from Planck's Law.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of assumptions regarding energy spectra and cavity sizes, indicating that these factors may influence the applicability of Planck's Law. The discussion remains open regarding the specific thresholds for deviation.

tade
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The difference between Planck's Law and the Rayleigh-Jeans' Law is, in Rayleigh Jeans, the average energy per mode is ##kT##, whereas in Planck, it is ##\frac{hc}{λ(e^\frac{hc}{λkT}-1)}##.

These average energy formulas are multiplied by another formula to give either Planck's Law or the Rayleigh-Jeans' Law.

This other formula is inversely proportional to ##λ^4##.

Hyperphysics covers the development of this ##\frac{1}{λ^4}## formula:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/rayj.html

In it is written:
Rod Nave said:
...becoming a very good approximation when the size of the cavity is much greater than the wavelength as in the case of electromagnetic waves in finite cavity.
At low temperatures, a blackbody radiates more strongly in longer wavelengths.

Does this model indicate that Planck's law breaks down when the temperature is low and the size of the blackbody cavity is small?
 
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The Planck's law won't break down, no matter what.

EDIT: Well, as one case from the below comments, it can be violated, as soon as the underlying assumptions do not hold.
 
Last edited:
dextercioby said:
The Planck's law won't break down, no matter what.
The Plank's law is violated in led bulbs.
 
tade said:
Does this model indicate that Planck's law breaks down when the temperature is low and the size of the blackbody cavity is small?
No. A cavity is only an approximation of an ideal blackbody described by Planck's law. The approximation is what's breaking down here; it doesn't work when the cavity is too small.
 
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Nugatory said:
No. A cavity is only an approximation of an ideal blackbody described by Planck's law. The approximation is what's breaking down here; it doesn't work when the cavity is too small.
Got it. Are there any formula(s) that experimental physicists use when measuring the spectra of tiny cavities?
 
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tade said:
Does this model indicate that Planck's law breaks down when the temperature is low and the size of the blackbody cavity is small?
One of the assumptions in the derivation of the Planck's law is that the spectrum of possible energies is continuous. But the spectrum of an atom at rest is certainly not continuous. Nevertheless, the spectrum of realistic materials is usually quasi-continuous, i.e. discrete but with such a small energy spacing that this looks negligible. However, when the temperature is low and cavity small, then it is no longer negligible, the spectrum cannot longer be considered quasi-continuous, so the Plank's law becomes badly violated.
 
Demystifier said:
One of the assumptions in the derivation of the Planck's law is that the spectrum of possible energies is continuous. But the spectrum of an atom at rest is certainly not continuous. Nevertheless, the spectrum of realistic materials is usually quasi-continuous, i.e. discrete but with such a small energy spacing that this looks negligible. However, when the temperature is low and cavity small, then it is no longer negligible, the spectrum cannot longer be considered quasi-continuous, so the Plank's law becomes badly violated.
How small and cold does a cavity have to be before it starts deviating from Planck's law significantly?
 

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