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News Bush says operates secret prisons

  1. Sep 6, 2006 #1
    I'm sure there's nothing questionable here.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/07/u...&en=42853988c547fbfe&ei=5094&partner=homepage

    And in a happily related article:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/washington/13policy.html?ex=1157688000&en=82ff72948bace032&ei=5070
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 6, 2006 #2
    This is old news, you never knew this? They have prisons in Syria, among other places. I think Egypt too?
     
  4. Sep 6, 2006 #3

    Gokul43201

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    But Congress is going to write a bill that immunizes members of the CIA and the military from being sued by terror suspects, no?
     
  5. Sep 6, 2006 #4
    And more of the usual:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060907/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush [Broken]

    "Lawful" indeed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  6. Sep 6, 2006 #5

    Astronuc

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    I think the Bush administration redefined the word "torture" so that detainees could be tortured, but the government could claim they don't. :rolleyes:
     
  7. Sep 7, 2006 #6
    I am rather curious as to what "alternative" means. I think it unlikely they mean cutting off their hands...... or any other part of their body. I believe the discussion has been had before that torture of this sort is ineffective, as the suspects will confess to being the sniper on the grassy knoll to avoid more mutilation. Most likely, these methods are semi-psych in nature. IE starvation, sensory depravation or something along those lines. Of course, this is only speculation...... as our glorious and exalted emperor will not share information with the mere peons.

    in principle I have little problem with the torture, to obtain information in a time of war, of enemy combatants. Let's face it, war is by its very nature a violation of all human rights; there is no moral high ground. Besides that, what's the difference if someone is shot in the stomach and bleeds to death in the battlefield or bleeds out in a torture chamber? They're just as dead either way, and neither is very pleasant. The difference is, that by shooting them on the battlefield we're only stopping them from killing our civilians. By extracting useful information from them, we can prevent others from killing. Personally, I give the life of an average joe more value than someone who has sworn themself to murder.

    Ultimately, these people choose this life... they know the risks and they know what's at stake. Nobody has forced them into that path, they walk it freely.

    Unfortunately, the world is not perfect and our leaders are far from competent. The iraq war has proven the weakness of our intelligence, and I find it difficult to believe that everyone held by our government is a threat. It is for this reason, and this reason alone, that this program should be shut down.
     
  8. Sep 7, 2006 #7

    J77

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    From hearing Bush on the radio. Apparently, these prisons helped save tens of thousands of US and UK lives.

    Well, thanks but no thanks, Mr Bush.
     
  9. Sep 7, 2006 #8
    Of course the unsubstantiated word of a politician who is acting in self-interest, should be taken as absolute truth.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2006
  10. Sep 7, 2006 #9
    Outrage in the EU:

    http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...SA-CIA.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-5
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2006
  11. Sep 7, 2006 #10
    The existance of the prisons is not news, but this is the first time that Bush has admitted that they exist.

    On another note Army intel has rewritten their interrogation manual. Waterboarding, electrical shock, and mock executions are no longer allowed.
    http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/145529 [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  12. Sep 7, 2006 #11

    Evo

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    I'm hoping that no one on here thinks that these places didn't exist before Bush. What, you're outraged because he's the first president to admit it? :rolleyes:
     
  13. Sep 7, 2006 #12
    There is a motive behind the Admission that the bases exist. It is the only way that the administration can get the congress to vote on a bill that would legitimize the administrations previous illegal actions.

    Admitting that the prisons exist also seems to contradict Bush's repeated statements that he does not belive in torture.

    We have gone full circle, we are back at square one. Does torture work?

    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2006
  14. Sep 7, 2006 #13

    selfAdjoint

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    Please give your sources for the statement (tacit in your post though you very carefully avoided making it) that CIA-sponsored torture and secret foreign prisons existed before 9/11.

    AFAIK even Chomsky never said that.
     
  15. Sep 7, 2006 #14

    Evo

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    We don't require "sources" for personal opinion SA. Why, do you believe that in the history of the US it has never detained or interogated anyone on foreign soil?
     
  16. Sep 7, 2006 #15

    BobG

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    I would have never considered that the US would run secret camps like these before Bush.

    Guantanamo existed as a detainment center in the early to mid 90's, but it was used to hold refugees from Cuba or Haiti (after the overthrow of Aristide). That's not the same as operating it as an interrogation center.

    Even as a just a place to hold refugees until a decision could be made about them, Guantanamo ran into trouble. The US didn't want to admit just anyone who made it across the water and sending them back to Cuba or Haiti would have bad consequences for the refugees. They tended to hold them in perpetual indecision until a US district judge declared the detainment unconstitutional.
     
  17. Sep 7, 2006 #16
    before 911 there hasn't been a need for these sorts of facilities outside of localized war zones like Korea or Vietnam (I'm only saying that the facilities could have been used there, not that i know they were). the only people that a facility like this would be used for would be communists but KGB agents were not prone to mass unmeasured killings of foreigners outside of a war zone.

    this idea about having a prison on foreign soil to interrogate foreigners who are not POWs because such interrogations would be illegal on domestic land is a new thing.
     
  18. Sep 7, 2006 #17
    LOL wow, look up the School of the Americas - or for that matter do any sort of real research into the CIA ... this information has long been in the public eye.
     
  19. Sep 7, 2006 #18
    no its not :rolleyes:
     
  20. Sep 7, 2006 #19

    Evo

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    Certainly never on this scale, but that's why it has drawn so much attention. I'm just aggravated by people that act like the US did nothing wrong before Bush. Clearly Bush went over the top though.
     
  21. Sep 7, 2006 #20

    Astronuc

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    Didn't Bush initially deny the program existed?

    It's just that the US has more places to go now following the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

    Certainly the CIA was very active in Central and S. America.

    And there is the controversial School of the Americas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas
    Among the many things taught there are interrogation techniques.
     
  22. Sep 7, 2006 #21

    Evo

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    Probably. I'm certainly not saying he's done anything right, just that I'm amazed when people seem so shocked. A bit of history really makes you less liekly to be surprised at anything anyone is capable of.

    I just get the feeling people here are equating "prisons" to Alcatraz when it may be a few rooms inside a military base (which we have all over the world), or a house, or a place of business, this is the CIA, it's not goihg to be something obvious.

    Things like "we demand to be told of all such locations" riiiight, like that's going to happen. :rolleyes: We live in a bad world with bad people and I'm not talking terrorists, it's anyone that abuses power or hurts others in the pursuit of their personal beliefs, for any reason.

    Espionage is never going to end and it's actually a necessary evil to an extent.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2006
  23. Sep 7, 2006 #22
    Well, I heard on the radio, or was it news, a while ago that they were sending prisoners to other countries like Syria to have the Syrians do the interrogation.....as you can image, it was not so nice. Actually, now that I am typing this post. I think it was a Canadian! He took a flight to the Middle East and the US government detained him. Then he was sent to Syria and held in a prison and beaten by Syrian intelligence. Canada got upset and demanded his return...I'll try and dig that story up unless someone does it for me...o:)
     
  24. Sep 7, 2006 #23

    Astronuc

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    Sadly, I have to agree with you. It is unfortunate, but we live in a world where some people want to hurt other people, and its every society. I think though that many people are incensed, rather than shocked. On the other hand, there are some who are in denial that the US could do such a thing as kidnap and torture people. And there are those, who support such treatment of 'suspected' terrorists.

    But when it is made public that the US government kidnaps and tortures people, which Bush is still denying, it undermines the credibility of the US (the US government is seen as committing inhumane acts for which it condemns other countries), and it puts US citizens at risk of retaliation anywhere in the world.
     
  25. Sep 7, 2006 #24
    iv herd of usa's support of groups that tourture and training in tourture methods but iv never heard of cia or military or even private agents doing the actual tourturing outside of warzones

    again, iv herd of support for anti-communist groups in these areas but not of the cia agents doing the dirty work. its one thing to supply money, tools and advise but its different to have americans do the tourturing themselves.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2006
  26. Sep 7, 2006 #25
    There are two related stories about Canadian citizens.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/arar_statement.html [Broken]

    http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=09fc9e93-5de7-4e3f-8a3e-1c12ef67f3fb [Broken]

    The administration was outsourcing the torture and looking in the other direction. And to Syria of all places!

    More recently it has been a Bush approved DIY CIA project specializing in waterboarding.
     
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