Calculate the order of the point

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter evinda
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Point
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around calculating the order of a point \( M \) on the curve defined by the polynomial \( f(x,y) = (x^2-1)^2 - y^2(3-2y) \). Participants explore the concept of the order of a singular point in the context of algebraic curves, including the use of Taylor expansions and derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant calculates the order of the point \( M(0,1) \) and concludes it is \( 2 \) based on their Taylor expansion of \( f(x,y) \).
  • Another participant questions this conclusion, suggesting that the highest order term \( x^4 \) indicates the order should be \( 4 \).
  • Some participants reference definitions from their notes regarding singular points and the order of singular points in algebraic curves, indicating that the order is defined as the degree of the lowest non-zero homogeneous component of the polynomial.
  • There is a discussion about using Taylor expansion formulas, with one participant noting the need for a generalized version for multiple variables.
  • Participants discuss the derivatives involved in the Taylor expansion, including the notation for first, second, and third derivatives in multiple dimensions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is disagreement regarding the correct order of the point \( M \). One participant asserts it is \( 2 \), while another argues it should be \( 4 \). The discussion remains unresolved as participants explore different aspects of the definitions and calculations involved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes references to definitions and properties of singular points and Taylor expansions, which may depend on specific interpretations or assumptions about the polynomial and its derivatives.

evinda
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,741
Reaction score
0
Hello! (Wave)

I want to calculate the order of the point $M$ at the curve $f(x,y) \in \mathbb{R}[x,y]$, when:

$$M(0,1), f=(x^2-1)^2-y^2(3-2y)$$

That's what I have tried:

$$f(x,y)=x^4-2x^2+1-3y^2+2y^3$$

$$f_4(x,y)=x^4$$

$$f_3(x,y)=2y^3$$

$$f_2(x,y)=-2x^2-3y^2$$

$$f_0(x,y)=1$$We check if $M$ is singular.

$$f(0,1)=0$$
$$f_x(x,y)=4x^3-4x$$
$$f_x(0,1)=0$$
$$f_y(x,y)=-6y+6y^2$$
$$f_y(0,1)=0$$

Taylor expansion of $f(x,y)$ at the point $M(0,1)$

$$f(x,y)=f(0,1)+[f_x(0,1)(x-0)+f_y(0,1)(y-1)]+ \dots$$

$$f(x,y)=-2x^2+3(y-1)^2+2(y-1)^3+x^4$$

So, the order of $M$ is $2$.

Could you tell me if it is right or if I have done something wrong? (Thinking)
 
Physics news on Phys.org
evinda said:
$$f(x,y)=-2x^2+3(y-1)^2+2(y-1)^3+x^4$$

So, the order of $M$ is $2$.

Could you tell me if it is right or if I have done something wrong? (Thinking)

Hii (Smile)

I'm not really aware of anything called "the order of a point", but since your polynomial has $x^4$ as its highest order term, shouldn't the order be $4$? (Wondering)
 
I like Serena said:
Hii (Smile)

I'm not really aware of anything called "the order of a point", but since your polynomial has $x^4$ as its highest order term, shouldn't the order be $4$? (Wondering)

According to my notes:

Let $f$ be an algebraic curve, $f(x,y) \in \mathbb{C}[x,y]$.
$M \in \mathbb{C}^2$ singular point of the curve
$\Leftrightarrow \left\{\begin{matrix}
f(x,y)=0\\ \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}(M)=0\\ \frac{\partial f}{\partial y}(M)=0

\end{matrix}\right.$

Each polynomial $f(x,y) \in K[x,y]$ can be written in the form:

$$f(x,y)=f_m(x,y)+f_{m+1}(x,y)+ \dots + f_n(x,y)$$

where $f_i(x,y)$ is a homogeneous polynomial of degree $i$ and $f_m(x,y) \not\equiv 0, f_n(x,y) \not\equiv 0$.

The order of the singular point $M=(a,b)$ of the curve $f$ is defined as the natural number $m$. (Nerd)
 
evinda said:
According to my notes:

Let $f$ be an algebraic curve, $f(x,y) \in \mathbb{C}[x,y]$.
$M \in \mathbb{C}^2$ singular point of the curve
$\Leftrightarrow \left\{\begin{matrix}
f(x,y)=0\\ \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}(M)=0\\ \frac{\partial f}{\partial y}(M)=0

\end{matrix}\right.$

Each polynomial $f(x,y) \in K[x,y]$ can be written in the form:

$$f(x,y)=f_m(x,y)+f_{m+1}(x,y)+ \dots + f_n(x,y)$$

where $f_i(x,y)$ is a homogeneous polynomial of degree $i$ and $f_m(x,y) \not\equiv 0, f_n(x,y) \not\equiv 0$.

The order of the singular point $M=(a,b)$ of the curve $f$ is defined as the natural number $m$. (Nerd)

Aha!
That makes sense. (Smile)

In that case I believe it is correct that the order of $M$ is $2$. (Wasntme)
 
I like Serena said:
Aha!
That makes sense. (Smile)

In that case I believe it is correct that the order of $M$ is $2$. (Wasntme)

Nice! Could we also use this formula:

$$f(x)=\sum_{n=0}^{\infty} \frac{f^{(n)}(a)}{n!}(x-a)^n$$

for the taylor expansion? (Thinking)
 
evinda said:
Nice! Could we also use this formula:

$$f(x)=\sum_{n=0}^{\infty} \frac{f^{(n)}(a)}{n!}(x-a)^n$$

for the taylor expansion? (Thinking)

That formula only has $x$ in it, and no $y$. (Worried)We can do it, but we'll need the generalized version of that formula for several variables:
[box=]Multi dimensional form of Taylor expansion
$$f(\mathbf x)=\sum_{n=0}^{\infty} \frac 1 {n!}\mathbf D^nf(\mathbf a)(\mathbf x-\mathbf a)^n$$
where $\mathbf x = (x,y)$, $\mathbf a = (a,b)$, and $\mathbf D^nf$ is the generalized derivative for multiple dimensions.[/box] (Dull)In this case it expands to:
\begin{aligned}f(x,y) = f(a,b) &+ \Big(f_x(a,b)(x-a) + f_y(a,b)(y-b)\Big) \\
&+ \frac 1{2!}\Big(f_{xx}\cdot (x-a)^2 + 2f_{xy}\cdot (x-a)(y-b) + f_{yy}\cdot (y-b)^2\Big) \\
&+ ...
\end{aligned}
(Wasntme)
 
I like Serena said:
That formula only has $x$ in it, and no $y$. (Worried)We can do it, but we'll need the generalized version of that formula for several variables:
$$f(\mathbf x)=\sum_{n=0}^{\infty} \frac 1 {n!}\mathbf D^nf(\mathbf a)(\mathbf x-\mathbf a)^n$$
where $\mathbf x = (x,y)$, $\mathbf a = (a,b)$, and $\mathbf D^nf$ is the generalized derivative for multiple dimensions. (Dull)In this case it expands to:
\begin{aligned}f(x,y) = f(a,b) &+ \Big(f_x(a,b)(x-a) + f_y(a,b)(y-b)\Big) \\
&+ \frac 1{2!}\Big(f_{xx}\cdot (x-a)^2 + 2f_{xy}\cdot (x-a)(y-b) + f_{yy}\cdot (y-b)^2\Big) \\
&+ ...
\end{aligned}
(Wasntme)

A ok! And which is the formula of $\mathbf D^nf$? (Thinking)
 
Last edited:
evinda said:
A ok! And which is the formula of $\mathbf D^nf$? (Thinking)

$Df$ is the vector of particle derivatives:
$$Df = (f_x, f_y)$$

$D^2f$ is the matrix of all possible second particle derivatives:
$$D^2f = \begin{bmatrix}f_{xx} & f_{xy} \\ f_{xy} & f_{yy}\end{bmatrix} = \left(\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x_i \partial x_j}\right)$$

$D^3f$ is a 2x2x2 matrix (aka tensor) with all possible combinations of the partial derivatives:
$$D^3f = \left(\frac{\partial^3}{\partial x_i \partial x_j \partial x_k}\right)$$

And so on. (Wasntme)

So for instance:
$$D^3f(\mathbf a) (\mathbf x - \mathbf a)^3 = \sum_i \sum_j \sum_k \frac{\partial^3f(\mathbf a)}{\partial x_i \partial x_j \partial x_k}(x_i-a_i)(x_j-a_j)(x_k-a_k)$$
(Sweating)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
862