Calculating non-dielectric reflectance without using complex numbers

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around calculating the Fresnel reflection ratio for non-dielectric materials without using complex numbers. Participants explore methods to incorporate the extinction coefficient into existing formulas while adhering to software limitations that prevent the use of complex arithmetic. The conversation includes theoretical considerations, practical coding challenges, and references to external resources.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the need to calculate the Fresnel reflection ratio using incident angle, refractive indexes, and extinction coefficient, emphasizing the restriction against complex numbers.
  • Another participant suggests that introducing imaginary numbers is beneficial for calculations, but acknowledges the software limitation faced by the original poster.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the integration of a "float3" structure into real arithmetic, seeking clarification on how to adapt the code without complex numbers.
  • There is a suggestion to provide code that uses complex numbers to facilitate the conversion to real arithmetic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the utility of complex numbers for calculations, but there is no consensus on how to proceed without them, leading to multiple competing views on potential solutions.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of their software and the challenges of adapting existing formulas that typically incorporate complex numbers. There is also mention of confusion regarding the editing of posts and its impact on thread clarity.

kaasisdebaas
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TL;DR
I need a to calculate the fresnel reflection ratio of a non dielectric material given the incident angle, the refractive indexes of the incident and interfacing materials and the extinction coefficient of the interfacing material. I need to to this without directly using complex numbers.
I need a to calculate the fresnel reflection ratio of a non dielectric material given the incident angle, the refractive indexes of the incident and interfacing materials and the extinction coefficient of the interfacing material. I need to to this without directly using complex numbers, due to limitations of the software i am using.

I do not have a physics background, but here is what i have been able to figure out so far.

given
incident angle θi in radians
incident IOR n1
interfacing IOR n2
and interfacing extinction coefficient k

I calculate the transmissive angle using snells law
1.png

Then using the fresnel equations I calculate the effective reflectance

2.png

3.png

4.png


this gives me this graph for a air to glass interface which looks correct
5.png


this works for dielectric materials that have a neglectable extinction coefficient, but for metals i need to extend the formulas i have. all the reference i can find extends the IOR with an imaginary component that handles the extinction coefficient, the problem is the graphic software im using does not allow complex numbers, so i need some way to extend the formulas i have using real numbers only.

the only reference i was able to find is this page https://seblagarde.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/memo-on-fresnel-equations/#more-1921
the code on that page is avoiding the use of complex numbers but i am unable to make heads or tails of what is actually happening here.
To be clear this is not the software im working in, this is just an example of an intergration that seems to not use complex numbers directly. I am just looking for the equations that describe it

any help intergrating the extinction coefficient into the existing formulas above is appreciated, thanks!
 
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Introducing imaginary number is helpful for calculation and we get real results we need at the end. I observe it in the page you refer.
 
anuttarasammyak said:
Introducing imaginary number is helpful for calculation and we get real results we need at the end. I observe it in the page you refer.
right, I understand that it is usefull, however the software i need this to work in does not allow for complex or imaginairy numbers, hence the question.
 
kaasisdebaas said:
.... the only reference i was able to find is this page https://seblagarde.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/memo-on-fresnel-equations/#more-1921
the code on that page is avoiding the use of complex numbers but i am unable to make heads or tails of what is actually happening here.
I suspect that a "float3" structure is made from three floating-point real numbers. Those three values .x, .y, and .z, define a 3D point, or a vector in 3D space.

Before I could expand the float3 functions needed into 1D real arithmetic, I would need a reference to the float3 structure and library.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/numerics_h/float3-structure

It may be easier to import the float3 library, then refer to the elements using the .x, .y or .z components, which are real numbers.
 
Baluncore said:
I suspect that a "float3" structure is made from three floating-point real numbers. Those three values .x, .y, and .z, define a 3D point, or a vector in 3D space.

Before I could expand the float3 functions needed into 1D real arithmetic, I would need a reference to the float3 structure and library.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/numerics_h/float3-structure

It may be easier to import the float3 library, then refer to the elements using the .x, .y or .z components, which are real numbers.
I edited the original post, cause there seems to be some confusion, this is not the software in using, its only an example i found that seems to not directly use complex numbers in its intergration.
 
kaasisdebaas said:
I edited the original post, cause there seems to be some confusion,
Just a point of discussion forum etiquette -- it's usally best to post a follow up reply with the corrections. Editing your OP after issues have been pointed out confuses all who read the thread afterward (since the issues are not there in your OP anymore). :smile:
 
kaasisdebaas said:
... this works for dielectric materials that have a neglectable extinction coefficient, but for metals i need to extend the formulas i have. all the reference i can find extends the IOR with an imaginary component that handles the extinction coefficient, the problem is the graphic software im using does not allow complex numbers, so i need some way to extend the formulas i have using real numbers only.
Then you need to give us a copy of the code with the imaginary component using complex numbers. We can then expand that out into real arithmetic for you.
 

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