Calculating the energy in an EM wave

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between energy in electromagnetic (EM) waves and photons, exploring concepts from classical electrodynamics and quantum mechanics. Participants examine the definitions and mathematical formulations related to energy in EM waves and the implications of these concepts in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests using the Poynting vector to calculate the energy of a single EM wave, proposing a relationship to the energy equation E=hf.
  • Another participant questions the notion of a "single EM wave," emphasizing that hf refers to the energy of a single photon, not an EM wave.
  • Some participants assert that while there is a mathematical relationship between photon energy and frequency, the relationship between photons and EM waves is complex and not straightforward.
  • Concerns are raised about the lack of context in the original question, particularly regarding the understanding of photons in relation to classical electrodynamics.
  • One participant mentions the need for a solid foundation in classical electrodynamics before delving into quantum electrodynamics (QED) and warns against conflating classical and quantum concepts.
  • There are inquiries about appropriate textbooks for understanding the theory of photons and quantum mechanics, with suggestions that QED is a graduate-level topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between EM waves and photons, with no consensus reached. Some emphasize the classical nature of EM waves, while others highlight the quantum aspects of photons.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of distinguishing between classical and quantum theories, indicating that assumptions about the perpendicularity of electric and magnetic fields may not hold in all contexts.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and educators in physics, particularly those exploring the foundations of electromagnetism and quantum mechanics.

  • #31
I have been working a bit more and this time I ended up with some relations that could have the right numbers. So hopefully it is ok that I post this as I am not sure where else I would post.
1583424852043.png

1583424879530.png

in the theory in the top of this post there is also a volume integral which starts the derivation below:
1583425086435.png
1583425155856.png


The volume needed to make this calculation work seems to be very close to the volume of the 1s of the hydrogen atom. It also seems to denote V=constant for an energy outlet of an electron since the classical electron radius is denoted as the radius where electrons emits photons. Can anyone explain why this is wrong or not?
 
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  • #32
fisher garry said:
The volume needed to make this calculation work seems to be very close to the volume of the 1s of the hydrogen atom.

How can you tell? Your work was completely devoid of units! A omission like this in my intro class will incur points deduction.

And what is the "volume" of the 1s hydrogen that you are using? And why should this be of significance other than a broad coincidence (assuming that your calculation is valid and correct, which is a big assumption)?

It is still a puzzle what exactly you are obsessing... er... calculating for.

Zz.
 
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  • #33
Seriously, learn to use TeX. Posting microscopic pictures is disrespectful of the time and effort people have put in trying to help you. Use units, like Zz said. Making people guess is disrespectful of the time and effort people have put in trying to help you. Finally, explainnwhat the heck you are trying to do rather than just dumping a big-wall-O-calculations. Doing otherwise is disrespectful of the time and effort people have put in trying to help you.
 
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  • #34
I guess I could write it down in tex:smile:

##\textbf{F}\cdot d \textbf{l}=q (\textbf{E} +\textbf{v}\times\textbf{B})\cdot \textbf{v}dt=q \textbf{E} \cdot \textbf{v}dt##

current density is defined as ##\textbf{J}=\rho \textbf{v}##

##\textbf{F}\cdot d \textbf{l}=\frac{q}{\rho} \textbf{E} \cdot \textbf{J}dt##

Maxwell-Ampere's law:

##\textbf{E} \cdot \textbf{J}=\frac{1}{\mu _0}\textbf{E} \cdot (\nabla \times \textbf{B})- \epsilon _0 \textbf{E} \cdot \frac{\partial \textbf{E}}{\partial t} ##

the identity

##\nabla \cdot (\textbf{E} \times \textbf{B})= \textbf{B} (\nabla \times \textbf{E}) - \textbf{E} \cdot (\nabla \times \textbf{B})##

We also have
##\textbf{B} \cdot \frac{\partial \textbf{B}}{\partial t}= \frac{1}{2} \frac{\partial }{\partial t} B^2##

##\textbf{E} \cdot \frac{\partial \textbf{E}}{\partial t}= \frac{1}{2} \frac{\partial }{\partial t} E^2##

##\textbf{E} \cdot \textbf{J}= \frac{1}{2} \frac{\partial }{\partial t}(\epsilon _0 E^2+\frac{1}{\mu _0} B^2)-\frac{1}{\mu _0} \nabla \cdot (\textbf{E} \times \textbf{B})##

The first term to the right in the last equation is the energy density. We want to look at the energy transported out which is the second term. Since we want what goes out we change the sign

##\textbf{F}\cdot d \textbf{l}=\frac{q}{\rho} \textbf{E} \cdot \textbf{J}dt=\frac{q}{\rho} \frac{1}{\mu _0} \nabla \cdot (\textbf{E} \times \textbf{B})dt=\frac{q}{\rho} \frac{1}{\mu _0} \nabla \cdot cB^2dt##

I omitted the direction vector above because I am only looking for a quantification of the energy. Above we still have the units Joule.

Then we look at an EM-wave

##B=\textbf{B}_{0}sin[2\pi ft]=\textbf{B}_{0}sin[2\pi f\frac{x}{c}]##

##\nabla \cdot (B^2)=\textbf{B}_{0} 4 \pi f \frac{1}{c} cos[2\pi f\frac{x}{c}] ##

##\frac{q}{\rho} \frac{1}{\mu _0} \nabla \cdot cB^2=\frac{q}{\rho} \frac{1}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0} 4 \pi f \frac{c}{c} cos[2\pi f\frac{x}{c}]=\frac{q}{\rho} \frac{1}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0} 4 \pi f cos[2\pi ft]##

We integrate over a quarter of a cycle since cos is positive in the first quarter and multiply by 4 afterwards

##4\int_{0}^\frac{T}{4}cos[2\pi ft]dt=4\frac{1}{2\pi f}(sin[2\pi f\frac{T}{4}]-sin[2\pi f 0])=2\frac{1}{\pi f}##

##E=\frac{q}{\rho} \frac{1}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0} 4 \pi f 2\frac{1}{\pi f}=8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0} ##

We still have units joule above

If all the energy was sent out from an electrons perspective instead

##\frac{dW}{dt}=\textbf{E} \cdot \textbf{J} d \tau##

By using the rewriting above and again assume that all the energy is sent out and therefore the energy density is 0:

##\frac{dW}{dt}=\frac{1}{\mu _0} \int c \cdot B^2 d \tau##

divergence theorem:

##\frac{dW}{dt}=\frac{c}{\mu _0} \int \nabla B^2 d A=\frac{c}{\mu _0}B^2 4 \pi r^2##

Again we want all the energy to be preserved in one wave

##W=4 \pi r^2\frac{c}{\mu _0} B_{0}^2 \int_{0}^T sin^2[2\pi ft] dt##

##sin^2[2\pi ft] =\frac{1}{2}- cos[4\pi ft]##

##W=4 \pi r^2\frac{c}{\mu _0} B_{0}^2 \int_{0}^T \frac{1}{2}- cos[4\pi ft] dt##

the lower limit leads to 0 since the integral of cos is sin and we are left with

##W=4 \pi r^2\frac{c}{\mu _0} B_{0}^2 ( \frac{T}{2}- sin[4\pi fT])= 2\pi r^2\frac{c}{\mu _0} B_{0}^2\frac{1}{f}##

The units are still joule

By equating the two energy relations

##W=8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0}=2 \pi r^2\frac{c}{\mu _0} B_{0}^2\frac{1}{f}##

##4 V= \pi r^2c \textbf{B}_{0}\frac{1}{f}##

##f= \pi r^2c \textbf{B}_{0}\frac{1}{4 V}##

If we assume that we have the ionization energy of hydrogen electron

##E_{ion}=2.1 \cdot 10^{-18}##

We try to detrmine the correpsonding magnetic field of the ionization energy:

##8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0}=2.1 \cdot 10^{-18}##

But we have two unknowns the volume and the B field. If we instead start with E=hf and see if we can get something that makes sense

##8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0}=hf##

##8 \frac{V}{h\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0}=f##

##f4 \frac{V}{c\pi r^2}= \textbf{B}_{0}##

##E=hf=8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0}=8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} f4 \frac{V}{c\pi r^2}##

It is said that electrons emit photons around the classical electron radius

##r_{classical}=2.82 \times 10^{-15}##

##h=8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} 4 \frac{V}{c\pi r^2}=6.6 \times 10^{-34}##

##V^2=\frac{\mu _0}{32}c\pi r^2 6.6 \times 10^{-34}=\frac{1.26 \times 10^{-6}}{32}3 \times 10^8 \pi (2.82 \times 10^{-15})^2 6.6 \times 10^{-34}##

##V^2=19.5 \times 10^{-62}##

##V=4.419.5 \times 10^{-31}##

This volume seems to be close to the 1s volume.

In general

##h=2.7 \times 10^{-2} \frac{V^2}{r^2}=6.6 \times 10^{-34}##

The second energy relation obtained above:

##2 \pi r^2\frac{c}{\mu _0} B_{0}^2\frac{1}{f}=E##

## r^2B_{0}^2 =\frac{f\mu _0}{c2 \pi}E=\frac{E}{2.7 \times 10^{-2} \frac{V^2}{r^2}}\frac{\mu _0}{c2 \pi}E##

## V^2B_{0}^2 =\frac{E}{2.7 \times 10^{-2} }\frac{\mu _0}{c2 \pi}E=0.0255 \times 10^{-12}E^2##

## VB_{0} =1.59 \times 10^{-5}E##

and the first energy relation obtained above:

##8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0}=E##

##V \textbf{B}_{0} =\frac{\mu _0}{8}E=1.58 \times 10^{-5}E##
 
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  • #35
fisher garry said:
It is said that electrons emit photons around the classical electron radius

What? By whom?
 
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  • #37
fisher garry said:

But do you know what a scattering "cross section" actually means? This is the "effective size" of an electron, by itself.

And what does this "r" have anything to do with the 1s hydrogen atom? You appear to be mixing two different quantities together that have nothing to do with one another.

But again, you refused to indicate what all of this is all about. Go read a physics publication. Read the abstract. It tells the readers what you intend to do and WHY. This is something you have consistently neglected to show here, even after repeated queries!

Zz.
 
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  • #38
ZapperZ said:
But do you know what a scattering "cross section" actually means? This is the "effective size" of an electron, by itself.

And what does this "r" have anything to do with the 1s hydrogen atom? You appear to be mixing two different quantities together that have nothing to do with one another.

But again, you refused to indicate what all of this is all about. Go read a physics publication. Read the abstract. It tells the readers what you intend to do and WHY. This is something you have consistently neglected to show here, even after repeated queries!

Zz.
the first energy relation deals with an electron revolving with velocity in the 1s shell and has energy given as

##8 \frac{V}{\mu _0} \textbf{B}_{0}##

The second energy relation deals with the same energy being given out from the electron and instead of a revolving electron in an orbital we look at the electron in its rest frame. This energy formula becomes

##2 \pi r^2\frac{c}{\mu _0} B_{0}^2\frac{1}{f}##

After that I equate those two. I guess a question would be can you equate those. And if not why not?
 
  • #39
The word "emit" is nowhere to be found in Libert's message or the Quora thread.
It's one thing to misunderstand what someone else said. It's another to misrepresent what they said.
 
  • #40
fisher garry said:
If we instead start with E=hf and see if we can get something that makes sense
You can't. ##E=hf## relates the energy and frequency of a photon so is completely irrelevant to any problem involving electromagnetic waves. It is always possible to torture unrelated equations into superficial equalities, and that's all you're doing here.

At this point it is time to close this thread.
 
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