Can Morality Survive in a Life or Death Dilemma?

[superwolf]

Ignoring all the other contextual definitions, right = in accordance with a moral code, and wrong = in discordance with the moral code. But it's all relative to the moral code. You're either comparing it to an individual's moral code, or the mean of the distribution of the moral values of a group of people, or some absolute standard that you believe to be greater than humans -- but in order to believe in the latter, it is implicit that it is the moral standard laid down by some creator, because there would not be any other higher standard that exists outside of humanity.

That's rather circular, isn't it?

Morals are invented to describe right and wrong, and right and wrong are defined as in (dis)accordance with the moral code...

You're either comparing it to an individual's moral code, or the mean of the distribution of the moral values of a group of people, or some absolute standard that you believe to be greater than humans -- but in order to believe in the latter, it is implicit that it is the moral standard laid down by some creator, because there would not be any other higher standard that exists outside of humanity.

Even if God invented morals, I can still disagree with him.

 

[superwolf]

Here's a contradiction that my flatmate and moral relativits cate up with the other day:

"Since morals are relative to each society, we should not intervene and tell them how they should behave."

Quote funny, isn't it?


How many people would have to be on the railway for it to be moral to sacrifice the fat man? And is it justifiable to kill an innocent to prevent a terrorist attack? What's the difference between the terrorist scenario and the fat guy scenario?

A ship has stroke an iceberg and more than 30 survivors were crowded into a lifeboat intended to hold 7. As a storm threatened, it becomame obvious that the lifeboat would have to be lightened if anyone were to survive. The captain reasoned that the right thing to do in this situation was to force some individuals to go over the side and drown. Such an action, he reasoned, was not unjust to those thrown overboard, for they would have drowned anyway. If he did nothing, however, he would be responsible for the deaths of those whom he could have saved. Some people opposed the captain's decision. They claimed that if nothing were done and everyone died as a result, no one would be responsible for these deaths. On the other hand, if the captain attempted to save some, he could do so only by killing others and their deaths would be his responsibility; this would be worse than doing nothing and letting all die. What should be done?

 

[Hurkyl]

How strange that you see a weakness where I see a strength in the argument.

If logical fallacies are the strength of your argument, then you don't have one.

The point I'm making is that there is a very good reason for it being difficult. The reason is because it is morally reprehensible to kill people, let alone 500 of them.

It looks more like the manifestation of a conditioned response to "normal" situations inappropriately applied to an "abnormal" situation. Right or wrong, the difficulty does not stem from the reprehensibility of the act.

And aren't you being circular in the first place? Your argument can only possibly work if someone already believes in your conclusion!

Oh, here's another similar conundrum, again Batman!



What to do if you were in the situation, but didn't have a convenient off-screen disposal point?

 

[a4mula]

Here's a contradiction that my flatmate and moral relativits cate up with the other day:

"Since morals are relative to each society, we should not intervene and tell them how they should behave."

Quote funny, isn't it?


How many people would have to be on the railway for it to be moral to sacrifice the fat man? And is it justifiable to kill an innocent to prevent a terrorist attack? What's the difference between the terrorist scenario and the fat guy scenario?

A ship has stroke an iceberg and more than 30 survivors were crowded into a lifeboat intended to hold 7. As a storm threatened, it becomame obvious that the lifeboat would have to be lightened if anyone were to survive. The captain reasoned that the right thing to do in this situation was to force some individuals to go over the side and drown. Such an action, he reasoned, was not unjust to those thrown overboard, for they would have drowned anyway. If he did nothing, however, he would be responsible for the deaths of those whom he could have saved. Some people opposed the captain's decision. They claimed that if nothing were done and everyone died as a result, no one would be responsible for these deaths. On the other hand, if the captain attempted to save some, he could do so only by killing others and their deaths would be his responsibility; this would be worse than doing nothing and letting all die. What should be done?

This entire thread is riddled with people confusing morals and ethics. Morality is relative to each individual. Ethics are relative to each societal representation. Only man can judge his own morality.

There is no right or wrong moral answer here. There is no universal morality. There are no universal ethics either! There is no absolute truth when it comes to definitions of language. Right, Wrong, Indifferent. They're all shades of grey that we as individuals must seek for ourselves.

This is why we have law. Law is indifferent to both morality and ethics. We set a standard of living and while that standard might not be moral or ethical on all accounts we agree to abide by it. Abortion (personal) is immoral to many people, yet it is legal. Lobbying (societal representation) is unethical to many people, yet it is legal.

We often times use morality as a soapbox for righteousness. This is a travesty. What any single one of us deems as moral could be construed as quiet immoral by the next. This question exposes the prejudices that we each hold. At the end of the day that's all morality really is.

I find it somewhat intriguing that we used a Dark Knight reference here. If nothing else Batman as seen in these latest movies was the epitome of defying universal morality. Yet here we are in the same thread trying to shoebox right and wrong, trying to force morals to fit into our own preconceived notions of what they should be. One of the largest flaws with people today is that we honestly believe that we are Right. Anyone that believes different than us must therefore be wrong. It happens all over the globe. We are quick to shove our beliefs and morality down the throats of others and if they don't openly accept them...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Until they decide to have a different belief system anyways.

 

[Huckleberry]

If logical fallacies are the strength of your argument, then you don't have one.


It looks more like the manifestation of a conditioned response to "normal" situations inappropriately applied to an "abnormal" situation. Right or wrong, the difficulty does not stem from the reprehensibility of the act.

And aren't you being circular in the first place? Your argument can only possibly work if someone already believes in your conclusion!

Oh, here's another similar conundrum, again Batman!



What to do if you were in the situation, but didn't have a convenient off-screen disposal point?

I disagree that there is no difference between reality and theory when it comes to subjective ideas such as morality. I believe the logical fallacy would be to assume that moral judgements are objective. The reason that it makes a difference whether the decision maker is in a real situation or a theoretical one is because the perception of the decision maker has changed drastically, and so too will his judgement in many cases. If the decision maker is independent of the process of choosing morality then it is more of a general consensus of the public that is passing judgement on him, in which case a statement would fulfill the needs of the theory and asking a question that places the reader in the place of the person doing the murdering would be unnecessary. So asking the question of a person assumes that they answer as if the situation were real, which would not be answered from the same frame of mind as they are while reading the question. It asks us to take into consideration the state of mind of the decision maker, just as juries are asked to do in courts. Empathy plays a major role in morality.

Yes, subjective arguments are often logically circular. Subjective arguments do not always follow linear paths. They are about observing patterns and, in this case, inserting the appropriate principle (or conditioned response) for the situation based on the reprehensibility of the act. Murder is reprehensible for subjective reasons. When the difficulty to act or not act outweighs the usefulness of the principle then the Joker gets what he wants. What is appropriate is debatable.

People are more forgiving of the perpetrators of accidental or wrongful death than they are of murder. (I forgot why I wanted to add this, but it seemed important when I thought it. So I added it anyway.)

 

[DaveC426913]

If logical fallacies are the strength of your argument, then you don't have one.

But it's not a fallacy.

We start with the general premise with which we all (excepting sociopaths) agree: that, all other things being equal, it is wrong to kill another person. This is the foundation.

Does that change because we introduce some possibly mitigating factors? My point is that the promises of a madman do not constitute a mitigating factor.

You think that our revulsion to killing as a factor is fallacious i.e. not relevant. My point is that it is the most important thing because it is a manifestation of our morality - one we can't avoid even if we try.



Everyone is playing this like it's a numbers game. They are answering the question what is the most effiicient? What answer would a robot give? They are side-stepping the question of morality.

 

[superwolf]

Does the fat man on the bridge have more right to live than the five men on the railway? Certainly, most people will say that it's wrong to throw the fat guy down to save the five, but could this be an ethical illusion?

 

[junglebeast]

That's rather circular, isn't it?

Morals are invented to describe right and wrong, and right and wrong are defined as in (dis)accordance with the moral code...

No, it's not circular at all. They are all just synonyms for the same concept that we made up, and some of them have different parts of speech.

Even if God invented morals, I can still disagree with him.

Yes, you can disagree with him..but once you realize that there is no absolute moral codebook that is ingrained into the nature of the universe, it becomes a question of personal opinion that depends on all the nuances of the situation.

If you rephrase the question from "Is it moral..." to "Do you find it moral..." (ie, relative to the individual's perspective), it's still not answerable because your own moral standards are constantly changing based on your experiences. Any conscious action a person makes must implicitly pass their moral values, although the experience of making that action and observing the consequences could very easily modify the person's moral values to consider that action immoral (retrospectively), and causing regret or shame.

This is after all how our morals are formed to begin with. An unborn child has no morals, it must learn them.

 

[superwolf]

Even if a god created the universe, there it does not mean that his moral values should apply in it. Even not gods can make morals objective.

 

[mheslep]

But it's not a fallacy.

We start with the general premise with which we all (excepting sociopaths) agree: that, all other things being equal, it is wrong to kill another person. ...

...wrong to murder another person..., then you have me aboard.

As dramatized in the Big Red One, 1980

Griff: "I can't murder anybody."
The Sergeant: "We don't murder; we kill."
Griff: "It's the same thing."
The Sergeant: "The hell it is, Griff. You don't murder animals; you kill 'em."

 

[superwolf]

And the difference is that killing is not necessarily intentional?

 

[junglebeast]

Even if a god created the universe, there it does not mean that his moral values should apply in it. Even not gods can make morals objective.

Do you also believe that humans can create new fundamental forces, or new types of fundamental particles, just by wishing it?

It's the same thing...either the concepts of right and wrong are a fundamental PART of the universe that existed before humans, or they were made up by humans.

If the concept was made up by humans, then it is impossible to make an absolute objective codebook of morals because it would be biased by the people(s) who made it.

Therefore, you cannot possibly believe in an objective moral right and wrong without also believing in God.

 

[superwolf]

Do you also believe that humans can create new fundamental forces, or new types of fundamental particles, just by wishing it?

Of course not, and I agree. I didn't intend to claim that humans can make morals objective. I just reckon that a powerful creator does not have this ability either.

Therefore, you cannot possibly believe in an objective moral right and wrong without also believing in God.

You can, but not without being irrational.Believing in God is no excuse, it does not make the concept of objective morality more rational, and besides the whole idea of God is irrational itself.

 

[mheslep]

And the difference is that killing is not necessarily intentional?

Yes, either
1) that it is unintentional by means of accident or incompetence on the part of the actor, or
2) that it is unavoidable,the cost of inaction being a greater evil, even more death, e.g. immediate self defence or war, the judgement being made that this is the case only by process of law, when available.

I hope that killing remains repugnant, even when it is not murder as excused in 1) or 2)

 

[superwolf]

Yes, either
1) that it is unintentional by means of accident or incompetence on the part of the actor, or
2) that it is unavoidable,the cost of inaction being a greater evil, even more death, e.g. immediate self defence or war, the judgement being made that this is the case only by process of law, when available.

Which means that it was wrong to sentence the captain in this case for manslaughter:

In 1842, a ship struck an iceberg and more than 30 survivors were crowded into a lifeboat intended to hold 7. As a storm threatened, it became obvious that the lifeboat would have to be lightened if anyone were to survive. The captain reasoned that the right thing to do in this situation was to force some individuals to go over the side and drown. Such an action, he reasoned, was not unjust to those thrown overboard, for they would have drowned anyway. If he did nothing, however, he would be responsible for the deaths of those whom he could have saved. Some people opposed the captain's decision. They claimed that if nothing were done and everyone died as a result, no one would be responsible for these deaths. On the other hand, if the captain attempted to save some, he could do so only by killing others and their deaths would be his responsibility; this would be worse than doing nothing and letting all die. The captain rejected this reasoning. Since the only possibility for rescue required great efforts of rowing, the captain decided that the weakest would have to be sacrificed. In this situation it would be absurd, he thought, to decide by drawing lots who should be thrown overboard. As it turned out, after days of hard rowing, the survivors were rescued and the captain was tried for his action. If you had been on the jury, how would you have decided?

 

[mheslep]

My 1),2) were for discriminating between murder and killing. So falling under 1),2) means one escapes murder, but not necessarily another charge like manslaughter. Manslaughter is not murder but, best as I am able to describe, negligent killing. Doesn't sound like manslaughter was warranted for the lifeboat lifeboat facts, though I wonder if there's more to the story, like getting himself carelessly into an avoidable position of hitting the iceberg in the first place. That might very well warrant the charge.

 

[superwolf]

Which means manslaughter is not necessarily wrong, and thus is not sufficient reason to sentence someone.

 

[mheslep]

Which means manslaughter is not necessarily wrong, and thus is not sufficient reason to sentence someone.

?? One can not conclude that from what I've posted here.

 

[superwolf]

If you are an utilitarian like me.

 

[junglebeast]

Of course not, and I agree. I didn't intend to claim that humans can make morals objective. I just reckon that a powerful creator does not have this ability either.

You can, but not without being irrational.Believing in God is no excuse, it does not make the concept of objective morality more rational, and besides the whole idea of God is irrational itself.

I don't believe a creator is rational, and I understand your point about a creator not being objective either. That all depends on your definition of objectivity. I was merely trying to argue the case that there does not exist an objective truth. Now it seems you are agreeing to that finally, so I'm not sure why you fought the other side for so long...

So, now that you agree that there is no objective moral standard, why are you still asking moral questions? Why are you trying to define the limits of something that is constantly relative and changing to everyone?

 

[superwolf]

I was merely trying to argue the case that there does not exist an objective truth.

Agreed. Of course there cannot be objective moral truths as long as "right" and "wrong" are empty words that refer to nothing. But relative to an ethical system, like utilitarianismm, ethical truths exist, just like physical truths do.

So, now that you agree that there is no objective moral standard, why are you still asking moral questions?

Because I think it's interesting to find out the arguments people back up their moralss with. If people stopped asking moral questions, the world wouldn't be a good place to live. I think that even if people disagree on moral issues, almost everyone cares about the consequences of actions. And I think almost everyone will agree that happiness is better than suffering. If people agree on that, it's only ethical illusions that draws people to other ethical systems than utilitarianism, in my opinion.

Even if ethics are not necessarily objective, not all ethical systems are equally based on reason. For instance, claiming that "what is right is what is in accordance with God's will" is less rational than "what is right is what causes less suffering", in my opinion.

Do you see any weaknesses with utilitarianism?

 

[Hurkyl]

Does that change because we introduce some possibly mitigating factors? My point is that the promises of a madman do not constitute a mitigating factor.

The "mitigating factor" in the scenario in the opening post is that your choice is between "everyone dies" and "the other boat dies".

Changing the scenario by adding in that our knowledge is contingent on the promises of a madman is a changed scenario. Changing the scenario is not an answer to a moral dilemma. Furthermore, you cannot fairly evaluate the new scenario unless you already worked through the previous one.

My point is that it is the most important thing because it is a manifestation of our morality - one we can't avoid even if we try.

Speak for yourself -- some of us actually have standards other than "do whatever's easiest". I pray that you have been sufficiently conditioned to act morally, and never encounter any edge cases where you will commit an atrocity because you acted upon instinct rather than rationally evaluating the situation.

Everyone is playing this like it's a numbers game.

Because, in effect, it is. Given all of the choices available to us, we have to be able to evaluate^* them and identify which has the greatest value, or at least which of them have adequate value.

*: literally, to find the value of

They are answering the question what is the most effiicient? What answer would a robot give? They are side-stepping the question of morality.

If I'm going to value some principle more than the lives of 1000 people, I want to make darned well sure that it's really worth it.

 

[junglebeast]

Do you see any weaknesses with utilitarianism?

Yes, because most utilitarian perspectives consider the direct repercussions of their actions and use that simplistic logic to justify actions which may end up causing a far greater amount of suffering.

For example, in blowing up the smaller boat with only 500 people to save 1000 people, the following effects might result:

A) 500 people are killed unnecessarily, which would have been more likely avoided by a person who did not consider the kill-button an option, and instead devoted their time to finding a workaround to save everyone, or waiting long enough for the terrorist to be apprehended and stopped.

B) 1500 people are killed, if both boats use the same logic simultaneously.

C) The psychopath was merely playing a psychological trick on the boats, and wasn't going to blow them both up in the event that neither comply.

D) By killing many people with utilitarian justification, a person may become desensitized to killing or even addicted to it, breeding psycopaths. Or alternatively, a person may be driven mad by their own guilt and commit other harmful effects to people as a result.

 

[superwolf]

I think you have misunderstood utilitarianism. If an action A leads to more suffering than an acton B, action B is better according to utilitarianism. Utilitarians are not immune to taking long time effects into consideration.

 

[junglebeast]

I think you have misunderstood utilitarianism. If an action A leads to more suffering than an acton B, action B is better according to utilitarianism. Utilitarians are not immune to taking long time effects into consideration.

You asked if I saw any weaknesses in utilitarianism . Utilitarianism is the idea that the moral worth of an action is determined solely by its contribution to overall perceivable utility, which is NOT the same as judging the moral worth of an action based on the actual utility. My point was that a person cannot accurately perceive utility, and therefore the use of utilitarian thinking to justify actions is dangerous, especially if that action is something like killing other people.

 

[superwolf]

The total utility will always be unknown, so this is not a weakness of utilitarianism more than other ethical philosophies. It's impossible to know with 100% confidence which action will give the best results in advance. We have to make decisions based on the perceivable utility or utility that seems plausible.

 

[DaveC426913]

Speak for yourself -- some of us actually have standards other than "do whatever's easiest".

This is both innaccurate AND unnecessarily derisive.

I pray that you have been sufficiently conditioned to act morally, and never encounter any edge cases where you will commit an atrocity because you acted upon instinct rather than rationally evaluating the situation.

And this is making it about the arguer rather than the argument. Ad hominem - the most naive of logical fallacies. Here's your pitard. Get hoisting.


BTW, I would point out that, in the scenario we are discussing, the action taken was, indeed, the action I promote. And, when the dust settled, it was the correct one. If you had been on one of those boats, you would now be in a (albeit comic book) courtroom on trial for the wholly unwarranted murder of 500 people.

And if the Captain on that boat in 1842 has followed my advice, his passengers would have been alive too.

 

[junglebeast]

The total utility will always be unknown, so this is not a weakness of utilitarianism more than other ethical philosophies. It's impossible to know with 100% confidence which action will give the best results in advance. We have to make decisions based on the perceivable utility or utility that seems plausible.

Each person's definition of "utility" is different, it could lead to chaos. A person could justify slaughtering his family in order to maximize his personal utility. Or a person could make the idiotic decision that blowing up a school will inspire people to reform academic policies and improve the education of millions to come. The problem with utilitarianism is it puts a dependence on people's immediate individual decisions and thought process. Not everyone attempts to assess the utility of their actions. Many people just blindly follow the rules set forth (ie, 10 commandments or federal and state laws). There is a benefit to people not trying to think for themselves when they are likely to make terrible decisions.

 

[ValenceE]

Hello to all,


First off, the 5 people on the railway tracks…

' Does the fat man on the bridge have more right not to be thrown down, than the five men on the railway have not to be overrun by the trolley? '

Absolutely… Everyone is in their proper place in their own space-time reality and its just too bad that the 5 are in a life threatening place… the fat man is in no way to be used as a sacrificial rescue for the others.

Now, about the boat people… difference in this scenario is that they have been put in their respective space-time reality by someone else, who, in this case, is the only one that can be made responsible for all deaths that would occur. Both Captains and their passengers would behave in their own conscience and humanity and it really is impossible for an outside observer to predict any outcome.


Regards,

VE

 

[Hurkyl]

This is both innaccurate AND unnecessarily derisive.

In your own words

You think that our revulsion to killing as a factor is fallacious i.e. not relevant. My point is that it is the most important thing because it is a manifestation of our morality​

I've certainly changed the connotation, but I'm not so sure I've changed the denotation -- you yourself have stated that you consider the fact the action is difficult to perform to be most important thing. Maybe my comment was unnecessarily derisive, but I do think it accurately reflects my contempt.

And this is making it about the arguer rather than the argument. Ad hominem - the most naive of logical fallacies. Here's your pitard. Get hoisting.

Normally I would agree, and be properly ashamed of myself. But this is an interesting edge case, because you have essentially been pushing the idea that recognition of what is moral is an unavoidable instinct, and that that instinct supercedes considering the situation rationally.

My ad hominem attacks are precisely the what I perceive to be the major flaws in such a position -- as far as I'm concerned, it can only possibly work if:
(1) your instincts are generally aligned with my moral standards
(2) you never face a dilemma that lies outside of your instincts' domain of validity

Since you have made character central to the discussion, and the ad hominems are precisely the problems I see in this aspect of your argument, I'm not convinced it is a fallacy.

BTW, I would point out that, in the scenario we are discussing, the action taken was, indeed, the action I promote. And, when the dust settled, it was the correct one.

Irrelevant, of course, because in real life, we have to make decisions without reading the script.

If you had been on one of those boats, you would now be in a (albeit comic book) courtroom on trial for the murders of 500 people.

Flaw #1: I never said I'd push the button. I can't even get people to agree that there's an issue worth discussing -- it would be a waste of my time to discuss it!

Flaw #2: this is a fallacious appeal to the consequences. If the morally right course of action has legal consequences, that doesn't change whether or not the action was morally right -- it just means that the legal system sometimes punishes morality.