Can Multiple Outputs from a Single Input Help in Constructing Non-Linear Curves?

  • Context: High School 
  • Thread starter Thread starter pairofstrings
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Functions Relations
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical concept of obtaining multiple outputs from a single input, particularly in the context of constructing non-linear curves. Participants explore various mathematical constructs, relations, and parameterizations that could facilitate this idea, while also addressing the implications and definitions of functions and relations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how to define a mathematical construct that allows multiple outputs for a single input, suggesting that parameterization could be a solution.
  • One participant proposes using relations to express multiple outputs, citing examples like ##x \leftrightarrow \{a\,\vert \,a^2=x\}##.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about encapsulating an object's behavior within itself mathematically, arguing that equations typically describe attributes rather than the objects themselves.
  • There is mention of the possibility of a single input yielding infinite outputs, with suggestions to plot these outputs against the input.
  • Participants discuss the concept of curve fitting as a method to approximate non-linear curves based on traced surfaces of objects.
  • Some participants emphasize the need for clarity in defining terms like "input" and "output" within the context of mathematical and programming terminology.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion contains multiple competing views and remains unresolved regarding the feasibility of obtaining multiple outputs from a single input and the appropriate mathematical constructs to describe such relationships.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding axioms, functions, and relations, leading to potential misconceptions that are not fully clarified. The discussion also highlights the need for precise definitions and terminology in mathematical contexts.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring mathematical modeling, non-linear functions, and the conceptual foundations of relations and functions in mathematics.

pairofstrings
Messages
411
Reaction score
7
<Moderator's note: This is a spin-off from another thread.>

Svein said:
How are you going to find the area and how do you know that the area is the correct one?
I will find out axioms to find out an answer to a question - axioms guarantees that my solution to a mathematical problem is correct.

I have another question: A function 'y' in 'x' yields a single value as output on an input. Is there any mathematical construct that let's me acquire multiple output on single input so that I could talk about non-linear curves - I think, obtaining multiple points at once from this hypothetical mathematical construct will let me build any kind of non-linear curve.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mathematics news on Phys.org
pairofstrings said:
I have another question: A function 'y' in 'x' yields a single value as output on an input. Is there any mathematical construct that let's me acquire multiple output on single input so that I could talk about non-linear curves - I think, obtaining multiple points at once from this hypothetical mathematical construct will let me build any kind of non-linear curve.
A general curve in the XY plane can be defined by parameterizing it with another variable. You can define the points (x(t), y(t)), t ∈ [0,1] to parameterize the curve using the parameter t. There can be multiple y values for the same x value.
A familiar example is the parameterization of a circle: (cos(θ), sin(θ)), 0≤θ≤2π.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Janosh89
pairofstrings said:
I will find out axioms to find out an answer to a question - axioms guarantees that my solution to a mathematical problem is correct.
Sounds as if you have some basic misconceptions of what axioms are. You just said: I define an answer to a question to be the answer to the question. Imagine the following question: "What is the solution to ##x\cdot a = a## for any ##a\,##? Let us call it ##x=2\,##." You can do this, but then you cannot use ##2## anymore as the result of ##1+1##. You need consistency, not merely an arbitrary definition.
I have another question: A function 'y' in 'x' yields a single value as output on an input. Is there any mathematical construct that let's me acquire multiple output on single input ...
This is called a relation. E.g. ##x \leftrightarrow \{a\,\vert \,a^2=x\}## or ##\mathcal{R}=\{(x,a)\,\vert \,a^2=x\}\,##.
... so that I could talk about non-linear curves - I think, obtaining multiple points at once from this hypothetical mathematical construct will let me build any kind of non-linear curve.
I cannot see what one has to do with the other. Of course does any scribbling of a curve in the plane define a relation, but this view isn't very useful in terms of applications.
 
I want to talk about my first post of this thread in little detail.

Is it possible to encapsulate behavior of an object in the object itself - assume that the object is at initial point, assume that there are multiple objects and these objects have behavior embedded into themselves? How do I say this in mathematical terms or how do talk about his mathematically? I want to talk about such objects collectively and independently.

y = how this expression could be?
y is equal to what?
separation_zpssmhrzce3.jpg

The above is a single pseudo equation talking about multiple objects collectively - I am trying to write a single equation that talks about two objects collectively.

The following equation yields one result, not two.
multiple-y_zpsnhonksvq.jpg


I need two values from a single input. So, what is it that separates these two objects and yet be the same 'y = '?
How do I write 'y = ' for this? Is it possible to write 'y = ' for the system that yields multiple outputs for a single input?
Is this Relation - the Relation helps to connect multiple objects to form a single 'y = '?
If yes, then what is the symbol that can isolate multiple objects in this single 'y = ' ?

What I am trying to find is that I want single 'y = ' for multiple objects.
y_zpsxercjgvl.jpg


A single input may also yield infinite outputs. I can plot a graph for a single input (on X-axis) against multiple or infinite output (on Y-axis)

many-y_zpsrhqeh65p.jpg


I want an input to bifurcate into multiple points or infinite points or 'n' points.

The above picture is the gist of this entire discussion. I hope I was clear in presenting the question.
 

Attachments

  • separation_zpssmhrzce3.jpg
    separation_zpssmhrzce3.jpg
    16.2 KB · Views: 444
  • multiple-y_zpsnhonksvq.jpg
    multiple-y_zpsnhonksvq.jpg
    15 KB · Views: 437
  • y_zpsxercjgvl.jpg
    y_zpsxercjgvl.jpg
    27.2 KB · Views: 443
  • many-y_zpsrhqeh65p.jpg
    many-y_zpsrhqeh65p.jpg
    15.2 KB · Views: 463
pairofstrings said:
Is it possible to encapsulate behavior of an object in the object itself - assume that the object is at initial point, assume that there are multiple objects and these objects have behavior embedded into themselves? How do I say this in mathematical terms or how do talk about his mathematically? I want to talk about such objects collectively and independently.
I don't think this is possible. A mathematical equation involves some attribute of an object, such as its position, its velocity, its mass, etc., but doesn't describe the object itself.

pairofstrings said:
y = how this expression could be?
y is equal to what?
Here's an example of one possibility: ##y = \pm x##. This is really shorthand for ##y = x \text{ or } y = -x##. For a given x value, there are two y values. Note that this is a relation between the set of x values and the set of y values. It is not a function.

pairofstrings said:
I need two values from a single input. So, what is it that separates these two objects and yet be the same 'y = '?
How do I write 'y = ' for this?
 
pairofstrings said:
A single input may also yield infinite outputs. I can plot a graph for a single input (on X-axis) against multiple or infinite output (on Y-axis)

You aren't asking a specific question. Since you don't use mathematical terminology, let's try the terminology of computer programming. What is your definition of an "input"? What kind of data structure is it? Must it be a floating point number? What kind of data structure is the output Y?
 
many-y_zpsrhqeh65p.jpg


1.
This is the curve that I found when I traced the surface of an object.
The curve is non-linear. Is there a way to find the equation of the curve?
I want to be able to recreate the curve 'y' when I substitute Integers into 'x'.
'y' is a function in 'x'.

2.
I can count objects (square, triangle, circle, rectangle, etc) that were used to build a particular object. What I want is that the count should also describe how the particular object visually appears.
 

Attachments

  • many-y_zpsrhqeh65p.jpg
    many-y_zpsrhqeh65p.jpg
    15.2 KB · Views: 763
Last edited:
pairofstrings said:
View attachment 219266

1.
This is the curve that I found when I traced the surface of an object.
The curve is non-linear. Is there a way to find the equation of the curve?
I want to be able to recreate the curve 'y' when I substitute Integers into 'x'.
'y' is a function in 'x'.
You can approximate the equation of the curve using curve fitting, about which there are a number of techniques. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_fitting
The inputs to this equation don't have to be integers.
pairofstrings said:
2.
I can count objects (square, triangle, circle, rectangle, etc) that were used to build a particular object. What I want is that the count should also describe how the particular object visually appears.
This seems unrelated to your question in post #1. I suppose you could describe an object with a number of small cubes, keeping track of the position and size of one dimension of each cube.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
8
Views
2K