Can Sound Waves Be Used to Turn a Screw Like a Sonic Screwdriver?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the feasibility of using sound waves to turn a screw, akin to the fictional concept of a sonic screwdriver. Participants examine various aspects, including theoretical possibilities, practical applications, and experimental approaches related to sound wave manipulation in mechanical contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that sound waves could potentially make a screw vibrate and turn, suggesting different metal compositions for the screw to facilitate directional movement.
  • Others argue that while sonic vibrations might loosen screws, they do not see a method for controlled rotation.
  • A participant mentions that sonic waves have been used to break interfacial friction but expresses uncertainty about their ability to rotate screws effectively.
  • Concerns are raised about the commercial viability of a sonic screwdriver, questioning production costs compared to traditional screwdrivers.
  • One participant describes a theoretical design for a sonic screwdriver, detailing various components and their arrangement, asserting that it could technically be constructed.
  • Another participant shares a personal anecdote about observing a screw move due to tapping, suggesting that a sonic screwdriver might be possible.
  • One participant expresses interest in conducting experiments to see if vibrations can move a nut along a bolt, proposing two different experimental setups.
  • Another participant encourages sharing methods and results from experiments, emphasizing the educational value of such investigations.
  • A detailed experimental setup is provided, describing materials and methods used to test the effects of vibrations on a screw and associated components.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a range of opinions, with some expressing skepticism about the practicality of using sound waves to turn screws, while others remain optimistic about the potential for experimentation and exploration. No consensus is reached on the feasibility of a sonic screwdriver.

Contextual Notes

Participants note various limitations, including the dependence on specific conditions for sound wave application and the unresolved nature of the proposed experiments. The discussion also highlights the need for further exploration of the mechanics involved.

  • #31
shockfish08 said:


So does anyone have any other ideas about how to construct a portable sonic device that could jiggle out screws ...


The discussion here reminded me of the 'whimmy doodle'-- aka: the 'Gee Haw Whammy Diddle'; or the 'Magic Propeller'. A stick is rubbed on another stick with notches in it and with a 'propeller' at the end. The notched stick is held firmly in one hand and the other hand holds the stick that will do the rubbing. Depending on how the rubbing stick is held, it is possible to make the propeller spin in either direction. These two web sites are interesting--- Google will return many more.

http://www.sciencetoymaker.org/prop/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gee-haw_whammy_diddle
 
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  • #32
The only way I can see this working is if you could construct a rotating sonic field, that could fit into the grooves that make up the screws head. It seems like such an indirect method.

Wouldn't a device that could generate a field like that be so big that it would simply be easier to carry an actual screwdriver?

Although this leads me in an interesting train of thought. Could pulsed sonic waves be used to warp the screw? Compress it, make it looser, and then remove it?
 
  • #33
HELLO. CAN ANYONE TELL ME HOW TO GET THE ITEMS LISTED BY BRENNANSHAW. I AM TRYING TO MAKE THIS BUT CANNOT FIND THE PARTS NEEDED. IF YOU CAN HELP ME PLEASE SEND THE INFORMATION TO ME @ PHYSICS FORUMS.THANKS IN ADVANCE. :biggrin:
 
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  • #34
I think these Dr Who fanboys are smothering the scientific aspects of this study to become one step closer to becoming their loved hero.
This aside, I believe that is a sonic wave was emitted at the correct frequency, the screws shall indeed vibrate and in turn, rotate, thus, unlocking a door... perhaps not by the traditional turning of a handle, but more taking it off the hindges. I wish anyone the best of luck when trying to make such a thing, and I look forwards to seeing the the results.
 
  • #35
i'm making a prototype sonic screwdriver, but i got a little device in the center between the lithium battery and the tube leading to the speaker and LED lights, that changes the frequency and hertz of the speaker, so when i test it, it gets that perfect note to unscrew stuff, and possible even achieve the brown note.
 
  • #36
Sounds nice. Post some pictures and schematics so we can see it.
 
  • #37
Don't feed the troll :-p
 
  • #38
Ok then.
 
  • #39
I have to wonder what health risks would be associated with thaat vibration. My wrists are on the edge of corp tnl, and I'd bet that thing, if not severly isolated, would drop me to tears after the first hand ful of 1/4-20's I pulled out

dr
 
  • #40
brennanshaw took his information from the doctor who visual dictionary, most of those things don't exist. but i do believe that some day this technology will be invented, and i wish to dedicate myself to inventing this. though brennanshaw was incorrect, he has a point about the accoustic accelerator inside the anechoic chamber. this would give us some leverage in directing the waves partially in a direction...i shall look further into this. though the problem would be how to make an anechoic chamber that small would require either sound proof glass or thermal insulation, and the thermal insulation might absorb the sound which in this case is not what we want. I would also have to be able to find a high frequency emitter, as i believe that high frequency will inhibate better results due to the rapid wavelength. if you all would like i could post a rough sketch of what I am thinking.
 
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  • #41
Unknown Hero said:
I believe that is a sonic wave was emitted at the correct frequency, the screws shall indeed vibrate and in turn, rotate, thus, unlocking a door... perhaps not by the traditional turning of a handle, but more taking it off the hindges...

actually, the wave would not be used in this sense. the wave would be directed into the locking mechanism to push the pins to the shear line, though this seems highly impractical. your way makes more sense. cheers.
 
  • #42
Has anyone seen this? Directional sound!
imagine a mixture of these small panels on the tip of the screwdriver cooperating with different frequencies!
 
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  • #43
Sierios said:
Has anyone seen this? Directional sound!
imagine a mixture of these small panels on the tip of the screwdriver cooperating with different frequencies!


this is very interesting. it would greatly increase the accuracy of the sound wave, and as he said, the sound is not coming from the transmitter, its being created at billions of points between the surface of the panel and the destination. The means its the air itself that is vibrating.

If you could aim it at a door lock, those points of vibration would be the pins. These vibrations would cause movement of the pins, but in theory, there would be no force of work. This device would help in 'aiming' the wave, but not actually creating the forcing/working frequency. Thanks for the link mate.
 
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  • #44
you morron the sonic screwdriver is not a screwdriver how could you not know that!
 
  • #45
777 said:
you morron the sonic screwdriver is not a screwdriver how could you not know that!

No offense intended, genius, but "moron" has only one "r". Also, the punctuation at the end of your last sentence should have been "?" or "?!" for emphasis. "you" as your opening word should have been capitalized, and "morron" followed by a "." or a ":" or a "—". The following "the" should have been capitalized if you had used the "." Otherwise, it required different spacing.
Also, there should have been a "!" or at least a "." following your second use of "screwdriver". "how", therefore, should have been capitalized. :rolleyes:
 
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  • #46
Danger said:
No offense intended, genius, but "moron" has only one "r". Also, the punctuation at the end of your last sentence should have been "?" or "?!" for emphasis. "you" as your opening word should have been capitalized, and "morron" followed by a "." or a ":" or a "—". The following "the" should have been capitalized if you had used the "." Otherwise, it required different spacing.
Also, there should have been a "!" or at least a "." following your second use of "screwdriver". "how", therefore, should have been capitalized. :rolleyes:

LOL

Danger, grammar police aficianado :cool: I'm going to have to check my posts twice as hard when you're around...
 
  • #47
Mech_Engineer said:
I'm going to have to check my posts twice as hard when you're around...

Naw... yours have always been pretty coherent. :biggrin:
 
  • #48
Hi;

I had built a working sonic screwdriver once, a few years back.

It’s common knowledge that sound/vibration can effect physical structure:soldiers must break step before crossing a bridge, an opera singer can break a wine glass by hitting the proper note, and a helicopter can easily shake a house from a distance overhead. So it seemed to me to be just a matter of frequency and power.

To test the theory I used an old box from a disused piezo-speaker that had a pair of screws on its top as well as a standard stereo speaker. The speaker was connected to a medium-powered stereo amplifier that was being fed by a simple audio sine wave generator.

At a certain frequency the screws on the box began to turn fast and easily until they reached the bottom; at a higher frequency they slowly unscrewed themselves. This was resonance at work. Going one step farther, I placed the speaker up against a solid wood door and adjusted the frequency upward; at a certaain point the key in the door turned itself to the right although not with enough force to open the lock. The key could even be turned when the speaker was some distance from the door (basic Mechanical Engineering 101). At one point I even managed to get dinner plates to spin on the sound head. That was cool.

Once I knew the theory was right, I had to see if I could a practical screwdriver. I tried several ideas but what worked best was a standard piezo buzzer from Radio Shack. Driven at the right frequency and at high enough voltage, it could easily turn the screws on the ox from three to four inches. This was great but at 143 dB, this didn’t work too well for quiet breaking and entering at 3:00 in the morning; not to mention it hurt any bystanders. I decided that this had to work at a near ultrasonic frequency, say 13 kHz. This was a frquency most people could only barely hear. By itself, this frequency didn’t turn the screws too well (resonance effects end at 10 kHz) but when either frequency or amplitude modulated, that worked the same as being used at an audible frequency. It could still be heard, but only because of the secondary modulation—if set for 10 Hz, one would hear the 10 Hz beat and not the 13 kHz even though it was mouch louder.

The final problem to be solved was the size. The SS took a lot of power. One couldn’t use big batteries or carry a battery pack; tat was tacky. The solution came when some company produced a neat little IC that could easily boost 3 volts to 9 VDC. Instead of big batteries, I only needed two sub-C to get all the power the SS needed. When it was finished, the sonic screwdriver was about 11 inches long; a little shorter than the 5th Doctor’s screwdriver (I had a chance to ask Peter Davidson about it once). Made out of aluminum and copper, it was a thing of beauty. Its only design flaw was the on/off switch: I could never get that like on TV. :-)

Eventually, somehow, it got lost...

‘Doc
 
  • #49
Doc Orion said:
Hi;

I had built a working sonic screwdriver once, a few years back.

It’s common knowledge that sound/vibration can effect physical structure:soldiers must break step before crossing a bridge, an opera singer can break a wine glass by hitting the proper note, and a helicopter can easily shake a house from a distance overhead. So it seemed to me to be just a matter of frequency and power.

To test the theory I used an old box from a disused piezo-speaker that had a pair of screws on its top as well as a standard stereo speaker. The speaker was connected to a medium-powered stereo amplifier that was being fed by a simple audio sine wave generator.

At a certain frequency the screws on the box began to turn fast and easily until they reached the bottom; at a higher frequency they slowly unscrewed themselves. This was resonance at work. Going one step farther, I placed the speaker up against a solid wood door and adjusted the frequency upward; at a certaain point the key in the door turned itself to the right although not with enough force to open the lock. The key could even be turned when the speaker was some distance from the door (basic Mechanical Engineering 101). At one point I even managed to get dinner plates to spin on the sound head. That was cool.

Once I knew the theory was right, I had to see if I could a practical screwdriver. I tried several ideas but what worked best was a standard piezo buzzer from Radio Shack. Driven at the right frequency and at high enough voltage, it could easily turn the screws on the ox from three to four inches. This was great but at 143 dB, this didn’t work too well for quiet breaking and entering at 3:00 in the morning; not to mention it hurt any bystanders. I decided that this had to work at a near ultrasonic frequency, say 13 kHz. This was a frquency most people could only barely hear. By itself, this frequency didn’t turn the screws too well (resonance effects end at 10 kHz) but when either frequency or amplitude modulated, that worked the same as being used at an audible frequency. It could still be heard, but only because of the secondary modulation—if set for 10 Hz, one would hear the 10 Hz beat and not the 13 kHz even though it was mouch louder.

The final problem to be solved was the size. The SS took a lot of power. One couldn’t use big batteries or carry a battery pack; tat was tacky. The solution came when some company produced a neat little IC that could easily boost 3 volts to 9 VDC. Instead of big batteries, I only needed two sub-C to get all the power the SS needed. When it was finished, the sonic screwdriver was about 11 inches long; a little shorter than the 5th Doctor’s screwdriver (I had a chance to ask Peter Davidson about it once). Made out of aluminum and copper, it was a thing of beauty. Its only design flaw was the on/off switch: I could never get that like on TV. :-)

Eventually, somehow, it got lost...

‘Doc

men, this is science at its best. thank you very much for the information, i believe you have given hope to many of us doctor who geeks. mabye one day when I am not poor I am build one, but nonetheless, thanks a lot!
 
  • #50
Romana had her own sonic screwdriver. I had seen it briefly on a few Doctor Who shows but for years I never could find a picture of it; I had the impression that it was rather simple looking.

When I finally saw a picture, I was disappointed: it looked like a metal tooth-pick! The design is simpler than the Doctor's (which is why he tried to steal it), and so is the electronics since it doesn't have a lot to do. Say a really simple 555 (for square wave) or a slightly more complex XR2206 (sine wave) oscillator working at 15 kHz; its output feeding a power transistor and a miniature audio transformer connected to a small [cylindrical] transducer.

The circuit is something that can be knocked together for a couple of bucks, on a small narrow piece of perfboard in less than an hour. But the finished device being so much simpler, one would have to physically touch the SS to whatever you want to affect because that tiny transducer won't radiate nearly as well as the design for the Doctor's screwdriver.

Still, it would make a cute little hi-tech toy for some would-be Time Lord. ;-)

'Doc
 
  • #51
Having seen many variations on both electronic and mechanical screwdrivers (of which I own two, a shortie and a regular) no larger than a normal screwdriver, I'm...

Not impressed. I also own a sheetrock scredriver that's nearly the same size (the same size at the driving head) as a normal screwdriver.

So, still not impressed. They work exceptionally well, using conventional (motor/worm driven gearing). No advanced "sonics" involved.

And they're fairly inexpensive!

Now if you can produce a "sonic screwdriver" that'll drive a thousand deckscrews on a single charge, I'd be happy to take a look.
 
  • #52
or put the screws in on both sides of the wall at the same time

dr
 
  • #53
dr dodge said:
or put the screws in on both sides of the wall at the same time

dr


Ahhh... I see. You want the kind of sonic screwdriver that the faux 11th Doctor had: handle made of wood, has a shaped metal piece for turning screws, and is sonic when you bang it against a wall heh heh.
 
  • #54
Doc Orion said:
Romana had her own sonic screwdriver. I had seen it briefly on a few Doctor Who shows but for years I never could find a picture of it; I had the impression that it was rather simple looking.

When I finally saw a picture, I was disappointed: it looked like a metal tooth-pick! The design is simpler than the Doctor's (which is why he tried to steal it), and so is the electronics since it doesn't have a lot to do. Say a really simple 555 (for square wave) or a slightly more complex XR2206 (sine wave) oscillator working at 15 kHz; its output feeding a power transistor and a miniature audio transformer connected to a small [cylindrical] transducer.

The circuit is something that can be knocked together for a couple of bucks, on a small narrow piece of perfboard in less than an hour. But the finished device being so much simpler, one would have to physically touch the SS to whatever you want to affect because that tiny transducer won't radiate nearly as well as the design for the Doctor's screwdriver.

Still, it would make a cute little hi-tech toy for some would-be Time Lord. ;-)

'Doc

nice, that makes sense. and hey, its the closest thing we have so far. any idea where i can get some of this stuff? future shop? radio shack? ebay?
 
  • #55
The Chemist said:
nice, that makes sense. and hey, its the closest thing we have so far. any idea where i can get some of this stuff? future shop? radio shack? ebay?
Digikey would be a good place to start.
 
  • #56
The Chemist said:
nice, that makes sense. and hey, its the closest thing we have so far. any idea where i can get some of this stuff? future shop? radio shack? ebay?

Best place is Mouser; you can get everything there except for the transducer-- that may be pretty hard to come by these days; the ceramics companies aren't as nice as they used to be to the experimenter. Ebay? Hmmm...

Just a reminder: smallness is the goal. Unless you are really skilled at working with surface mount parts, stick to 1/8 watt resistors and 16v tantalum caps. With creative wiring, it's amazing how compact you can get those circuits.

'Doc
 
  • #57
Lancelot59 said:
Digikey would be a good place to start.

Back in the day-- in those ancient times before the evil Bush monster plunged us into an economical Dark Age-- Radio Shack used to have a simple little kit used the TL499AC chip to make a 1.3v - 9v converter. One battery poduced 20 ma; two AA cells produced 60 ma at 9 VDC.

You can't get the kit any more, but I do think you can get the TL499AC chip by itself from Digikey. At least, they had it a few years ago... :-)
 
  • #58
Doc Orion said:
Back in the day-- in those ancient times before the evil Bush monster plunged us into an economical Dark Age-- Radio Shack used to have a simple little kit used the TL499AC chip to make a 1.3v - 9v converter. One battery poduced 20 ma; two AA cells produced 60 ma at 9 VDC.

You can't get the kit any more, but I do think you can get the TL499AC chip by itself from Digikey. At least, they had it a few years ago... :-)

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.z_homepage_link=hp_go_button&KeyWords=TL499AC&x=26&y=27 Not the exact name though.
 
  • #59
I used the converter kit first to see if it could power my screwdriver which is more sophisticated than the Romana design.

The Romana design is less complicated-- only 1 chip (and somebody clever could probably do it with only a few transistors)-- but if the TL555 low power timer IC is used, it could be run off of a single battery or two, depending upon the battery used. Radio Shack has (still?) a 3.6 v ni-cad cell that might work.

Didn't there used to be a cylindrical 22 volt battery? Anyway, that would work nicely with a voltage regulator to drop the supply down to 15 volts. As Mr. Spock would say, there are always possibilities. One could even make a simple converter from a few spare parts--

http://www.rowan.sensation.net.au/electronics/stepup.html

Still, it's always good to have a few catalogs from battery companies sitting around; you never know what you might find that will make a sonic screwdriver smaller, more compact. :-)

'Doc
 
  • #60
At this website --

http://books.google.com/books?id=-s...&resnum=8&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false


there are a number of basic transistor circuits that can make for great tiny driver circuits. Use two power transistors, work out the R/C values to get 13-15kHz operation, and use a miniature audio step-up transformer and it's finished. The screwdriver will easily operate at 1.5 volts.

The only problem is that the circuit will not only put out more power at 3.0 volts, but the frequency will change as the supply voltage changes. Of course, one could always use 3volts for maximum power to start with (you don't want to de-polerize the ceramic transducer) and at 13 kHz but as the power drops, so would the frequency. But hey, it's just a toy, right? <w>
 

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