Can the physics of consciousness transcend space-time?

AI Thread Summary
The discussion explores the intersection of consciousness, time, and quantum mechanics, particularly focusing on the phenomenon of déjà vu. A theory is proposed suggesting that during REM sleep, brain activity may allow for experiences that transcend space-time, potentially linking dreams to future events. Participants reference Cramer's Transactional Interpretation of quantum mechanics, which posits that quantum wavefunctions can move both forward and backward in time, creating a "handshake" effect. Skepticism is expressed regarding the validity of linking déjà vu to quantum mechanics, with some suggesting it is more likely a psychological phenomenon rather than a genuine experience of foreknowledge. The conversation encourages documenting dreams to investigate any correlations with future experiences, emphasizing the need for empirical evidence in understanding these complex topics.
  • #51
I'll start with some general ideas. It seems to me that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of reality that has yet to be explained by any basic theory. The mind obviously is closely engaged with our physical world, it is nested within a brain. We simply do not understand this relation and we may not understand the physical world in enough detail to even begin to see how it is possible. It seems likely to me that this will be a relation of 'fundamental kinds' or as philosopher's say, 'natural kinds' The problem is physical more-so than biological -- this may simply mean that (in my opinion) the consciousness problem will not be solved by biology per se (description of brain structure and dynamic) but will be solved by a fundamental theory that is 1) mathematical in nature and 2) weds the dynamics and structure (and substance of?) of consciousness to fundamental physical processes, or maybe just fundamental physical kinds and/or causal structures (time, casualty as interaction and light/causality cones)

Your idea about the mind operating on some kind of non-classical forward/backward time transaction, as in the fundamental description of interactions, may not be fundamental to sleep, but an aspect of the basic structure and dynamic of consciousness itself. While the mind is awake, alert, and operating upon highly filtered and pre-structured sensory information, this transaction may cover a narrower envelope, and in sleep the mind is severed from real time so the envelope expands because its is only constrained by the internal processes of the mind (thought) rather than the temporally independent physical continuum that it has access to when awake and alert (the world / sensory).

Also, It also seems a bit absurd to say the mind visits the future or past in any concrete sense. All that makes sense is that the internal processes (thinking about thinking, not being wed to sensory data) are free to temporally expand in some sense. As if temporal logic is out the window. This leads to many commonly reported phenomena associated with sleep or meditation. (That a dream seems to last and hour but the REM period was only a minute long, etc.)

"as every present state of a simple substance is naturally a consequence of its preceding state, so its present is pregnant with its future." -- Leibniz Maybe we should take this strangely and literally. weird stuff.
 
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  • #52
I hoped you noticed the date of the last post in this thread before your reply.

Zz.
 
  • #53
Actually no, first post on any forum ever, getting used to it.
 
  • #54
Things have changed a lot since this thread was last active. Moved to Philosophy.

Welcome to PF, FitzHenHugh.
 
  • #55
The physics of consciousness begs a definition for this thread to produce any conclusion or even direction.

The physics of consciousness is going to look a lot like the physics of neurophysiology. Is there anyone versed in this phenomenon before we have to resort to Google for the information?
 
  • #56
baywax said:
The physics of consciousness begs a definition for this thread to produce any conclusion or even direction.

The physics of consciousness is going to look a lot like the physics of neurophysiology. Is there anyone versed in this phenomenon before we have to resort to Google for the information?

Well-versed in what phenomenon? The phenomenon of mind? The relationship of brain and mind? You do understand that this is not a simple question that you can just go google up the answer to?
 
  • #57
Math Is Hard said:
Well-versed in what phenomenon? The phenomenon of mind? The relationship of brain and mind? You do understand that this is not a simple question that you can just go google up the answer to?

Well versed in the physics of neurophysiology.

Here's something of the sort:
Atomic physics and neurophysiology

http://www.icmart.org/index.php?id=83,0,0,1,0,0

It would also entail the physics or neurophysics of consciousness.

Consciousness combines information about attributes of the present multimodal sensory environment with relevant elements of the past. Information from each modality is continuously fractionated into distinct features, processed locally by different brain regions relatively specialized for extracting these disparate components and globally by interactions among these regions. Information is represented by levels of synchronization within neuronal populations and of coherence among multiple brain regions that deviate from random fluctuations. Significant deviations constitute local and global negative entropy, or information. Local field potentials reflect the degree of synchronization among the neurons of the local ensembles. Large-scale integration, or ‘binding’, is proposed to involve oscillations of local field potentials that play an important role in facilitating synchronization and coherence, assessed by neuronal coincidence detectors, and parsed into perceptual frames by cortico-thalamo-cortical loops. The most probable baseline levels of local synchrony, coherent interactions among brain regions, and frame durations have been quantitatively described in large studies of their age-appropriate normative distributions and are considered as an approximation to a conscious ‘ground state’. The level of consciousness during anesthesia can be accurately predicted by the magnitude and direction of reversible multivariate deviations from this ground state. An invariant set of changes takes place during anesthesia, independent of the particular anesthetic agent. Evidence from a variety of neuroscience areas supporting these propositions, together with the invariant reversible electrophysiological changes observed with loss and return of consciousness, are used to provide a foundation for this theory of consciousness. This paper illustrates the increasingly recognized need to consider global as well as local processes in the search for better explanations of how the brain accomplishes the transformation from synchronous and distributed neuronal discharges to seamless global subjective awareness.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYS-45DFF15-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=cbc2e0860ce4c64e3bf80eac6bdec788

A theory of neurophysics and quantum neuroscience: implications for brain function and the limits of consciousness.

Persinger MA, Koren SA.
Behavioral Neuroscience Program, Biophysics Section, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada. mpersinger@laurentian.ca
The authors have assumed there are specific temporal patterns of complex electromagnetic fields that can access and affect all levels of brain space. The article presents formulae and results that might reveal the required field configurations to obtain this access and to represent these levels in human consciousness. The frequency for the transition from an imaginary to real solution for the four-dimensional human brain was the wavelength of hydrogen whereas the optimal distance in space was the width of a proton or electron. The time required to expand one Planck's length as inferred by Hubble's constant for the proton was about 1 to 3 ms, the optimal resonant "point duration" of our most bioeffective magnetic fields. Calculations indicated the volume of a proton is equivalent to a tube or string with the radius of Planck's length and the longitudinal length of m (the width of the universe). Solutions from this approach predicted the characteristics of many biological phenomena, seven more "dimensions" of space between Planck's length and the level of the proton, and an inflection point between increments of space and time that corresponded to the distances occupied by chemical bonds. The multiple congruencies of the solutions suggest that brain space could contain inordinately large amounts of information reflecting the nature of extraordinarily large increments of space and time.

These papers were found on Google out of 5,480 sites answering to "the neurophysics of consciousness".
 
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  • #58
Well, heck we can all go put terms into google and pull back miscellaneous research studies and websites (some of them questionable) that might have something to do with what we're looking for. Unless you can distill these into something meaningful and relevant to the topic, we're not going to get very far. You're just going to shoot arrows in the dark and hope that you hit on something helpful, and hope that someone will come by and explain it to you.

And as important as understanding neurophysiology is to understanding consciousness, working on small puzzle pieces of the problem is where the science is at right now. If you find someone who can give you a complete and integrated answer, be careful, you are likely talking to a crackpot.
 
  • #59
Math Is Hard said:
Well, heck we can all go put terms into google and pull back miscellaneous research studies and websites (some of them questionable) that might have something to do with what we're looking for. Unless you can distill these into something meaningful and relevant to the topic, we're not going to get very far. You're just going to shoot arrows in the dark and hope that you hit on something helpful, and hope that someone will come by and explain it to you.

And as important as understanding neurophysiology is to understanding consciousness, working on small puzzle pieces of the problem is where the science is at right now. If you find someone who can give you a complete and integrated answer, be careful, you are likely talking to a crackpot.

You're right about that. I'm merely advocating that a definition of consciousness will help this thread progress. And some of the results of the study of the neurophysics of consciousness may help toward that end.

We can certainly start with the fact that consciousness is a wishy washy word from the start and that neurophysicists prefer the word "awareness" in its place.

So... what we are actually talking about here is the state of "awareness transending space-time".

Superficially I'd say of course it can. You are aware that you are traveling in a jet therefore your awareness is transcending space. When you are aware of the passage of time, say watching an ice cube melt... then you are transcending the changes time measures.
 
  • #61
Ivan Seeking said:
We have some nice related references in posts 10 and 11 of this thread:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=58374

Thanks Ivan Seeking,

I like this approach:

Consciousness and Complexity
Conventional approaches to understanding consciousness are generally concerned with the contribution of speciÞc brain areas or groups of neurons. By contrast, it is considered here what kinds of neural processes can account for key properties of conscious experience. Applying measures of neural integration and complexity, together with an analysis of extensive neurological data, leads to a testable proposal Ñ the dynamic core hypothesisÑabout the properties of the neural substrate of consciousness.
http://scholar.google.com/url?q=http.../tononi282.pdf

The brain is organized is such a way as to support the survival of the organism it monitors and that, in turn, supports the brain. Thus, our awareness or consciousness is going to reflect the necessities involved in keeping the (host) organism alive and this will probably determine the quality of "consciousness" experienced by the said brain. So, the "neural substrate of consciousness" will be configured in a practical manner that supports life as we are accustomed to it. How much of our helpful, supportive neurons do you think are devoted to "transcending space and time"?
 
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  • #62
I thought this one was interesting.

Spin as Primordial Self-Referential Process Driving Quantum Mechanics, Spacetime Dynamics and Consciousness
http://66.102.1.104/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=cache:oMnlFW9h5zkJ:www.neuroquantology.com/JOURNAL/index.php/nq/article/viewPDFInterstitial/35/
 
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  • #63
Here is one to cause some fits.

Abstract Theoretical explication of a growing body of empirical data on consciousness-related anomalous phenomena is unlikely to be achieved in terms of known physical processes. Rather, it will first be necessary to formulate the basic role of consciousness in the definition of reality before such anomalous experience can adequately be represented. This paper takes the position that reality is constituted only in the interaction of consciousness with its environment, and therefore that any scheme of conceptual organization developed to represent that reality must reflect the processes of consciousness as well as those of its environment. In this spirit, the concepts and formalisms of elementary quantum mechanics, as originally proposed to explain anomalous atomic-scale physical phenomena, are appropriated via metaphor to represent the general characteristics of consciousness interacting with any environment...
http://www.springerlink.com/content/vtrr87tg356154r7/
 
  • #64
Ivan Seeking said:
Here is one to cause some fits.
Theoretical explication of a growing body of empirical data on consciousness-related anomalous phenomena is unlikely to be achieved in terms of known physical processes.

wait a minute..

"consciousness-related anomalous phenomena"

C.R.A.P. ?

:smile:

sorry, I just couldn't resist. :redface:
 
  • #65
Math Is Hard said:
wait a minute..

"consciousness-related anomalous phenomena"

C.R.A.P. ?

:smile:

sorry, I just couldn't resist. :redface:

:smile: Oh what an unfortunate oversight that was!

I had never heard of it, but the journal is listed in the Thomson Index.
 
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