Can you help with my classroom debate? (Impulses in car crashes)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the impulse-momentum theorem, particularly in the context of car crashes involving different surfaces. Participants explore the relationship between impulse and momentum, questioning whether the impulses experienced by cars crashing into a brick wall versus a haystack are the same when the changes in momentum are equal.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that if the change in momentum is the same for both cars, then the impulses must also be the same.
  • Others argue that the nature of the surfaces (brick wall vs. haystack) implies that the impulses are different, as the stopping times and forces involved may vary.
  • A participant questions whether the stopping times for both scenarios are the same, leading to further discussion about the implications of stopping time on impulse.
  • There is a contention regarding the definitions of impulse and momentum, with some participants seeking clarification on the equations governing these concepts.
  • One participant expresses confusion over the relationship between force, time, and impulse, leading to a discussion about the inverse relationship between force and stopping time.
  • Another participant attempts to illustrate their understanding by providing hypothetical values for force and time to demonstrate equal impulses, but acknowledges a misunderstanding of the relationship between force and time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the impulses are the same or different, as there are competing views regarding the influence of the surfaces and the definitions of impulse and momentum.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved aspects regarding the assumptions about stopping times and the definitions of impulse and momentum, which may affect the conclusions drawn by participants.

Xian Maynor
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My classmates and I were discussing the impulse-momentum theorem and how they correlate.

The example problem consisted of two cars running into solid surfaces at the same velocity. One car ran into a brick wall and came to a complete stop. The other car ran into a haystack and came to a complete stop. This was done so to where the change in momentums were the same between the two cars.

A question was then arisen as to whether the impulse of the two surfaces were the same, as impulse and momentum are considered to always be equal to each other mathematically. My teacher began to say that the impulses were different because the surfaces were different, however, I stated that if the change in momentums were equal between the two cars, then the impulses between the two cars would also be the same.

Who's right?
 
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Xian Maynor said:
My classmates and I were discussing the impulse-momentum theorem and how they correlate.

The example problem consisted of two cars running into solid surfaces at the same velocity. One car ran into a brick wall and came to a complete stop. The other car ran into a haystack and came to a complete stop. This was done so to where the change in momentums were the same between the two cars.

A question was then arisen as to whether the impulse of the two surfaces were the same, as impulse and momentum are considered to always be equal to each other mathematically. My teacher began to say that the impulses were different because the surfaces were different, however, I stated that if the change in momentums were equal between the two cars, then the impulses between the two cars would also be the same.

Who's right?

Read this:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/impulse.html

Do you think the stopping time is the same for both scenarios?

Zz.
 
Xian Maynor said:
My classmates and I were discussing the impulse-momentum theorem and how they correlate.

The example problem consisted of two cars running into solid surfaces at the same velocity. One car ran into a brick wall and came to a complete stop. The other car ran into a haystack and came to a complete stop. This was done so to where the change in momentums were the same between the two cars.

A question was then arisen as to whether the impulse of the two surfaces were the same, as impulse and momentum are considered to always be equal to each other mathematically. My teacher began to say that the impulses were different because the surfaces were different, however, I stated that if the change in momentums were equal between the two cars, then the impulses between the two cars would also be the same.

Who's right?
Welcome to the PF. :smile:

Impulse and momentum have slightly different definitions. Can you show us the equations for each?

EDIT -- Oops, Zz beat me to it!
 
berkeman said:
Welcome to the PF. :smile:

Impulse and momentum have slightly different definitions. Can you show us the equations for each?

EDIT -- Oops, Zz beat me to it!

There were no equations because they were conceptual multiple choice. We were talking about the change in momentum and impulse and whether they were the same.
 
Xian Maynor said:
Yes, the stopping times were the same for both vehicles.

Really? One stops almost immediately, while the other is spread out over the crumpling of the haystack. One changes momentum very quickly, while the other has its momentum change over a period of time.

Think again!

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
Really? One stops almost immediately, while the other is spread out over the crumpling of the haystack. One changes momentum very quickly, while the other has its momentum change over a period of time.

Think again!

Zz.

That was the problem that I had. However, my teacher told me to envision a situation where they had the same stopping time, even though the surfaces are different. I personally feel that she butchered this question.
 
Xian Maynor said:
That was the problem that I had. However, my teacher told me to envision a situation where they had the same stopping time, even though the surfaces are different. I personally feel that she butchered this question.

Look at the link I gave you. You (or your teacher) may not want to consider any "equation", but that is the ONLY guide one has to view this, even conceptually.

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
Look at the link I gave you. You (or your teacher) may not want to consider any "equation", but that is the ONLY guide one has to view this, even conceptually.

Zz.

I think I better understand. While the impulses would be the same, the amount of force exerted to stop the car is equally proportional to the amount of time it took the car to stop. Therefore, when multiplied together, they come to the same amount of impulse, even though they are different surfaces?
 
  • #10
Xian Maynor said:
I think I better understand. While the impulses would be the same, the amount of force exerted to stop the car is equally proportional to the amount of time it took the car to stop. Therefore, when multiplied together, they come to the same amount of impulse, even though they are different surfaces?

You are not quite there.

The force applied is inversely-proportional to the time it takes to stop the car. The shorter the time, the larger the applied force to stop the car. This is an opposite relationship, not "equally proportional".

Zz.
 
  • #11
ZapperZ said:
You are not quite there.

The force applied is inversely-proportional to the time it takes to stop the car. The shorter the time, the larger the applied force to stop the car. This is an opposite relationship, not "equally proportional".

Zz.

My bad, that's what I meant. I meant it as in if the wall had a force of 3 and the time was 2, and the haystack had a force of 2, but a time of 3, then the impulse would be 6 for both, making the impulses equal.
 
  • #12
Xian Maynor said:
My bad, that's what I meant. I meant it as in if the wall had a force of 3 and the time was 2, and the haystack had a force of 2, but a time of 3, then the impulse would be 6 for both, making the impulses equal.

Then you have it.

Zz.
 
  • #13
ZapperZ said:
You are not quite there.

The force applied is inversely-proportional to the time it takes to stop the car. The shorter the time, the larger the applied force to stop the car. This is an opposite relationship, not "equally proportional".

Zz.
Thank you, that really helps me to better understand this.
 

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