Carnot Engine cycle on PV Diagram

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around creating a PV diagram for a Carnot engine cycle, focusing on calculating pressure, volume, heat transfer (Q), work done (W), change in internal energy (ΔU), and change in entropy (ΔS) at four distinct points. The problem is set within the context of thermodynamics, specifically relating to heat engines and their efficiency.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Problem interpretation, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to utilize various equations related to the Carnot cycle but expresses uncertainty about the correctness of their calculations, particularly regarding the work done and the heat transfer values. They question how to determine the properties at points d and a without known pressures or volumes. Some participants suggest calculating the engine's efficiency to derive other values, while others discuss the implications of isothermal versus adiabatic processes.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging in exploring different approaches to the problem, with some providing guidance on how to relate efficiency to heat transfer and work. There is a recognition of the need to clarify the relationships between the various parameters involved in the Carnot cycle, but no consensus has been reached on specific methods or solutions.

Contextual Notes

There are indications of potential confusion regarding the definitions of heat transfer and the roles of different processes in the cycle. The original poster also notes a lack of clarity on the application of certain equations, particularly in relation to the isothermal and adiabatic processes.

Sorelle
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I posted this in the engineer / comp science thread, but I've had no one reply or help. I really could use some guidance and I don't know where else to post.

Homework Statement


I am tasked to create a PV Diagram of a Carnot Engine Cycle. I must find pressure, volume, Q, W, ΔU, and ΔS on all four points. This is what has been given to me by my teacher:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/LupjMh6SJxv2M4loxPxaSIMEaU6wtMeMfz0_jjY6dgyyEewHwdgzplahrV0Xidfkjpn4dfu3h0wcjoc=w1920-h1021
TCold = 300 K
THot = 1700 K
pc = 1.01*105 Pa
vc = 0.01 m3
Qa to b = 300 J
γ (gamma) = 1.40

Homework Equations


(1) p1v1=p2v2
(2) W=nRT ln(V2/V1)
(3) p1v1γ=p2v2γ
(4) W= p1v1-p2v2 / (γ-1)
(5) T1V1(γ-1) = T2V2(γ-1)
(6) W = nRT ln(V2/V1)
(7) pv = nRT

The Attempt at a Solution


Using the above equations I managed to get point b's pressure and volume. What I got for point b:
vb = 0.028 m3
pb = 2.389*104 Pa
First, I used the gas law equation (7) to get moles. This came out to n = 0.405 moles. Then, I used equation (5) to get volume, solving for Vb(y-1). I then used equation (3) to get pressure, solving for pb. I then got W = -852.7 J for the path b to c using equation (4). This seems kind of odd to me and I'm not sure if its correct because it's doing more work than the amount of heat it is providing. I assume Qa to b = is QH ? It seems so low though.

I'm trying to figure out how am I going to get points d and a without knowing pressure or volume on those points. A class mate had suggested I used equation (5) for a to b and c to d, but those paths are isothermal. Isn't equation (5) adiabatic only? I don't know if I can even use the gas law because I'd need pressure or volume and I don't have that.

There is also the idea that I have to use equation (6) and solve for volume that way. The problem is I don't know where to start. I'm a little rusty on my calculus (it's been about 4 years). I tried to break it down to W = nRT(ln (V2) - ln (V1))= nRT( 1/V2 - 1/V1), but this doesn't seem to help and I may have done it wrong.

I'd be grateful for any kind of help.
 
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Did you mean ##Q_{A \to B} = 300\text{ J}##? 300 K doesn't make sense.

Try figure out what you easily can from the given information. For example, what's the efficiency of the engine? If you know that, you can figure out ##Q_{C to D}## and W and so on.
 
vela said:
Did you mean ##Q_{A \to B} = 300\text{ J}##? 300 K doesn't make sense.

Try figure out what you easily can from the given information. For example, what's the efficiency of the engine? If you know that, you can figure out ##Q_{C to D}## and W and so on.

Yeah, sorry I had the wrong unit there (fixed it).

I could try using e = Th - Tc / TH to get the efficiency and then use e = W / QH in some way to get volume or pressure perhaps.

I wonder if perhaps I have the temperatures mixed up. and Tc should be c → d ?
 
You can figure out QC from e and QH.

On each leg, either Qi to f=0 (adiabatic) or ΔUi to f=0 (isothermal). Take C to D. It's an isothermal process, so you know the internal energy doesn't change. The first law then tells you that W(C to D) = ±QC (I'm not sure what sign convention your class follows). Well you found QC earlier, so you know W(C to D), so you can figure out VB using (6). Then use the ideal gas law to find pB. Just keep going like that around the cycle.
 
Thank you you've been very helpful.

I have just 1 last question though. How can I get VB from ln (V2/V1) ? would eW/nRT / V2 = V1 work?
 
Close. The units don't work out there. You have ##\rm{m^{-3}}## on one side and ##\rm{m^3}## on the other. ##V_1## should be some multiple of ##V_2##. Other than the algebra mistake, though, you have the right idea.
 

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