Cartesian coordinates vs. The rest of the world?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differences between Cartesian coordinates and other coordinate systems, particularly spherical coordinates, in the context of gradients and their coefficients. Participants explore the implications of using different coordinate systems in calculus and the nature of gradients in these systems.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the gradient in non-Cartesian coordinates, such as spherical coordinates, includes coefficients, suggesting that the gradient should reflect changes in intensity directly without the need for partial derivatives.
  • Another participant argues that the simplicity of Cartesian coordinates arises from their basis in straight lines, which aligns with the foundational principles of calculus, implying that this simplicity is not an inherent superiority but rather a result of historical development.
  • A third participant challenges the notion of defining the gradient in a specific way, suggesting that alternative definitions could be valid.
  • One participant seeks a graphical explanation for the presence of coefficients in the gradient, hypothesizing that they may normalize the gradient concerning the metric.
  • A later reply introduces a practical example regarding the change in longitude when traveling east, highlighting that such changes depend on latitude, which raises questions about the applicability of gradients across different coordinate systems.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature and definition of gradients in various coordinate systems, with no consensus reached on the validity of Cartesian coordinates as a standard or the necessity of coefficients in gradients.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves assumptions about the nature of calculus and coordinate systems, as well as the implications of using different metrics, which remain unresolved.

ManDay
Messages
157
Reaction score
1
So I wonder why the gradient in coordniates other than cartesian ones bears coefficients. Let's take spherical coordinates for example. We have

NumberedEquation6.gif

(Source) - Sorry if image doesn't work - too lazy to get the TeX right.[/size]

From what I know, I don't see anything that raises cartesian coordinates above any other C/S' (apart from marginal properties such as whether the mapping is reversable). I hence would expect the gradient in spherical coordinates to be

\vec\nabla = \vec{e}_r\frac{d}{dr} + \vec{e}_\phi\frac{d}{d\phi} + \vec{e}_\theta\frac{d}{d\theta},

where \vec{e}_\dots is the unit vector in \vec{g}_{\dots} = \frac{\partial \vec{r}}{\partial \dots} direction (where |g| is not normalized).

After all, the gradient in coordinate q descibes the change of intensity I in q direction. And when I change \vec{r} by a little d\theta, the change in intensity is naturally \frac{dI}{d\phi} and not \frac{1}{r\sin(\phi)}\frac{\partial I}{\partial \theta} (why would it be partial anyway?).

So why is transformed from cartesian coordinates? What validates cartesian coordinates as the origin of all transforms, so to say? I could understand the application of the Leibniz'en chain rule if \nabla to a scalar potential in general coordinates were sought with respects to cartesian coordinates. But we are looking for the gradient in terms of spherical coordinates - so what do cartesian coordinates want to tamper with?best regards
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I'm not sure why you think the gradient having constant coefficients (or, equivalently, that the metric tensor is a constant function of the coordinates) "raises Cartesian coordinates above other coodinates". The crucial point is that Cartesian coordinates are based on straight lines. Because calculus itself is based on straight lines (the derivative is basically a way of approximating a function by a linear function), of course, such a coordinate system is simpler than others. It is largely an artifact of the way we have developed calculus. It would be possible to develop a calculus based on curvilinear coordinates, approximating a functions graph, not by a straight line but by some other curve. If we developed a calculus based on circles, then polar coordinates would give particularly simple gradients.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: TheArun
How can you argue with a definition? You may think that the gradient should be defined a certain way, but it wasn't. You're free to define an s-gradient, however.
 
HallsofIvy, much appreciated. But can you come up with a more graphical explanation for why there are these coefficients? Do they somewhat normalize the gradient with respect to the metric - because that's the impression I have? Yet, I wouldn't see a reason why it's useful.
 
If I travel due east at a speed of 1 km per hour for 1 hour, how much change is there in my longitude? (Assume my latitude and altitude remain constant.) In fact, the answer depends on my latitude! (And on my altitude...)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
5K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
6K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
5K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K