- #211
Jimmy Snyder
- 1,127
- 21
No we aren't.BobG said:And in the US, we're guaranteed the right (and darn near the duty) to criticize 24/7.
No we aren't.BobG said:And in the US, we're guaranteed the right (and darn near the duty) to criticize 24/7.
Sorry Bob, what can't be right?BobG said:That can't be right! That's the definition of capitalism in a global free-trade economy. I can make cars at GM today. I can work at Walmart tomorrow. With an on-line degree from http://www.belforduniversity.org/?source=Adwords-US&kw=degrees+mail+order , I can be head coach of Notre Dame next week. And in the US, we're guaranteed the right (and darn near the duty) to criticize 24/7.
As Vanesch has pointed out to you numerous times already there is a sliding scale of socio-economic realities.jimmysnyder said:I think I was falling back on Aristotelian logic. How many different possibilities do you count?
What Russia and China ended up with were ultra-nationalist despotic regimes which bore absolutely no resemblance to the concept of communism just as all the most repressive fascist regimes include democratic or socialist in their names but it doesn't make them either democratic or socialist.jimmysnyder said:I had said in a previous post that people think they're getting Marx, but they always end up with Lenin.
Art said:Sorry Bob, what can't be right?
If you mean the quote then I assure you it is correct. Marx saw the division of labour as leading to the 'enslavement' of individuals.
http://books.google.ie/books?id=hCh...FfAvwmw&sig=-lAiIyBbZ3ujsodB4snggtYNwFM&hl=en
And Cuba. And North Korea. And VietNam. And Yugoslavia. And Cambodia. And the Soviet Block. They talk Marx, and they all give you Lenin. Where is your Marxian government? I don't think it exists. Do you think that when I say Communist country, I mean this non-existant concept? I don't. Where is your Marxian government?Art said:What Russia and China ended up with were ultra-nationalist despotic regimes which bore absolutely no resemblance to the concept of communism just as all the most repressive fascist regimes include democratic or socialist in their names but it doesn't make them either democratic or socialist.
I agree you can not depend on folk 'to do the right thing' which to my mind is the fundamental flaw with communism; it's based on an unrealistic, naive view of human nature with everybody working for the common good.BobG said:It was a joke. A person can change jobs just as often in capitalism as they do in communism (and probably do more often in reality).
I know the quote is correct, but his comment is totally detached from reality. The only way Marx's vision could literally come true is if the economy was so successful that competence at whatever career you chose was no longer required.
The enslavement of individuals is to the necessity of making a living. That doesn't change whether you're talking about communism or capitalism. The group has to make a living even if the group's division of the rewards doesn't depend on any individual's contribution. One way or the other, someone has to do the things required to make a living, either because they personally benefit or because they see it will help the group - or, since you can rarely depend on the latter to happen in large groups, someone makes the person do whatever's required to help the group.
BobG said:And in the US, we're guaranteed the right (and darn near the duty) to criticize 24/7.
jimmysnyder said:No we aren't.
jimmysnyder said:Please forgive my gross spelling errors in the following.
I agree with you here. But it's not just Stalin and Mao, it's Lenin, Krustchov, Brezniev, Deng, Ho, Pol, Kim, Tito, Chauchesku, Honeker, Castro, and the list goes on. Dictators all, no exceptions. This doesn't prove that the next one won't be the first leader of a Communist country that isn't a dictator, but inductive reasoning does have its good points. It can in some cases help you avoid unmitigated disaster. Anyway, Raul doesn't look like a mold breaker to me.
Hitler got 37% of the vote in a popular election in July 1932.BobG said:Technically, Krushchev and Brezhnev weren't dictators. They were 'elected' by the Communist Party and Krushchev was removed by the Communist Party.
jimmysnyder said:Were Hitler and Stalin dictators? Krushchev and Brezhnev were dictators but not because of the way they were elected. Before they were finished they got 99% of the popular vote. Rather it was the way they dictated.