A Charge to mass ratio of a photon

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The discussion centers on the charge-to-mass ratio (q/m) of photons, which is theorized to be zero since both charge and mass are considered negligible or undetectable. Current experimental limits suggest the mass of a photon is less than 10^-44 kg and its charge less than 10^-42 C, leading to an undefined ratio. The interaction of photons with electrogravitational fields remains speculative, as the Standard Model does not unify electromagnetic and gravitational fields. There is no credible evidence supporting the existence of a charged photon, and any implications of a non-zero charge or mass have not been observed. Overall, the charge-to-mass ratio of photons is a topic of theoretical interest but lacks empirical support.
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Charge to mass ratio of a photon, electromagnetic interactions are dependent on the charge to mass ratios
Photon is supposed to have a vanishingly small amount of charge and a vanishingly small amount of mass. However, I have been unable to find any information regarding photon’s charge to mass ratio (q/m). I will appreciate any insight on this issue.
 
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The mass and charge are zero as far as we know, so the charge to mass ratio would be 0/0.

You can model a photon with mass and this has quite wide-ranging effects, none of which have been detected. I'm not aware of a charged photon model - where did you read about it?
 
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Karmyogi01 said:
Photon is supposed to have a vanishingly small amount of charge and a vanishingly small amount of mass. However, I have been unable to find any information regarding photon’s charge to mass ratio (q/m). I will appreciate any insight on this issue.
You've already asked this question at https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/854698/charge-to-mass-ratio-of-a-photon. The answer here is the same as there:
"Now, it's possible that the charge and mass of the photon are non-zero because of physics we haven't discovered yet. Our best experimental estimates are that the mass of the photon is less than ##10^{-44}## kg or so, and the magnitude of its charge is less than about ##10^{-42}## C. But the ratio of these two numbers could be pretty much anything between zero and infinity, depending on the relative magnitudes of these quantities. So we can't even meaningfully place a bound on the value of ##q/m\,##."
 
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Ibix said:
The mass and charge are zero as far as we know, so the charge to mass ratio would be 0/0.

You can model a photon with mass and this has quite wide-ranging effects, none of which have been detected. I'm not aware of a charged photon model - where did you read about it?
Thanks.
Interaction of a particle, including a photon, with an electrogravitational field depends on its charge to mass ratio. If we do not know the charge to mass ratio (q/m) of a photon, then we cannot predict or understand its interactions with an electrogravitational field. If q/m for a photon is undefined, then it would amount to saying that its interaction with an electrogravitational field remains “undefined”, and therefore beyond our understanding! These papers give some info on the upper limits on the charge and mass of a photon:
L. B. Okun, “On the charge of the photon,” Am. J. Phys. 81, 436–441 (2013).
R. E. Crandall, “Photon mass experiment,” Am. J. Phys. 51, 698–702 (1983).
 
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Karmyogi01 said:
Thanks.
Interaction of a particle, including a photon, with an electrogravitational field depends on its charge to mass ratio. If we do not know the charge to mass ratio (q/m) of a photon, then we cannot predict or understand its interactions with an electrogravitational field. If q/m for a photon is undefined, then it would amount to saying that its interaction with an electrogravitational field remains “undefined”, and therefore beyond our understanding!
Please provide credible scholarly references that:
1) Define the "electrogravitational field".
2) Explicitly state that the charge-to-mass ratio (q/m) of a photon is somehow required to "predict or understand its interactions with an electrogravitational field".
In the Standard Model of contemporary physics, the electromagnetic and gravitational fields are in no way unified into a common "electrogravitational field". Moreover, the dynamics of those fields do not in any way depend on the charge-to-mass ratio of the photon, and the predictions arising from those dynamics, including for photons, agree extremely well with experiment.
 
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Karmyogi01 said:
If we do not know the charge to mass ratio (q/m) of a photon, then we cannot predict or understand its interactions with an electrogravitational field.
I am also not aware of any widely accepted idea of an electrogravitational field except in the general concept of a unified theory. I think you may be too far out on the speculative end of things.
 
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Ibix said:
The mass and charge are zero as far as we know, so the charge to mass ratio would be 0/0.
I'd add that there are qualitative implications of a particle having non-zero mass or charge, ever so slight, which are not observed.

For example, if a photon had a non-zero charge, this would give rise to many Feynman diagrams in quantum electrodynamics (QED), yet the accuracy and precision of QED calculations is unsurpassed by any other measurement in all of science. This places an indirect bound the charge of a photon much more strict than the usual published limitations based upon more direct observations.

OKUN 2006 has argued that schemes in which all photons are charged are inconsistent.

If photons were charged, then QED (the quantum theory of electromagnetism) would be a non-abelian gauge theory, but in fact, it is described with exquisite precision and accuracy by an abelian gauge theory.

The physics of massive spin-1 bosons (like the W and Z bosons, and a hypothetical massive photon) are governed by a Proca action (which the photon does not obey).

A pair of photons can interact to give rise to a particle-antiparticle pair in which both the particle and the antiparticle are charged particles, however, in a time inverted version of particle-antiparticle annihilation. These kinds of interactions are part of why there is a weak force and hadronic component to the anomalous magnetic moment of the muon and part of why the electron, the muon, and the tau lepton do not have the same anomalous magnetic moment, even though the charged leptons differ from each other only by virtue of their mass.

Also, the OP should keep in mind that gravity couples to mass-energy and not just to mass. So a massless photon can still gravitate, and is still influenced by a gravitational field, in a manner precisely described in General Relativity.

electromagnetic interactions are dependent on the charge to mass ratios

This premise is false with respect to the electromagnetic interactions of photons.
 
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renormalize said:
You've already asked this question at https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/854698/charge-to-mass-ratio-of-a-photon. The answer here is the same as there:
"Now, it's possible that the charge and mass of the photon are non-zero because of physics we haven't discovered yet. Our best experimental estimates are that the mass of the photon is less than ##10^{-44}## kg or so, and the magnitude of its charge is less than about ##10^{-42}## C. But the ratio of these two numbers could be pretty much anything between zero and infinity, depending on the relative magnitudes of these quantities. So we can't even meaningfully place a bound on the value of ##q/m\,##."
It is worth noting that these very low upper bounds are entirely due to the limits of scientific instrumentation. There is no positive evidence of a non-zero photon charge, or a non-zero photon mass.

The experimental limit on photon mass is more naturally expressed as < 10-18 electron volts divided by the speed of light squared (by comparison, the differences between the neutrino mass eigenvalues is on the order of 10-2 eV/c2 to 10-3 eV/c2, so only the lightest neutrino mass could even theoretically be this small). Galaxy scale observations support an even tighter bound of < 10-26 eV/c2.

The experimental limit on photon charge is more naturally expressed as < 10-46 times the electron charge, and there are no know particles with a non-zero electromagnetic charge of less than ± 1/3 of the electron charge.

The experimental basis for these limitations is summarized at the interactive page for the photon at the Particle Data Group.
 
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renormalize said:
Please provide credible scholarly references that:
1) Define the "electrogravitational field".
2) Explicitly state that the charge-to-mass ratio (q/m) of a photon is somehow required to "predict or understand its interactions with an electrogravitational field".
In the Standard Model of contemporary physics, the electromagnetic and gravitational fields are in no way unified into a common "electrogravitational field". Moreover, the dynamics of those fields do not in any way depend on the charge-to-mass ratio of the photon, and the predictions arising from those dynamics, including for photons, agree extremely well with experiment.
I truly appreciate you trying to shed very helpful light on the subject.

Let us consider a situation wherein a blackhole gobbles up a large amount of charged mass nearby when emission of radiation was in progress from a source outside its blackhole boundary but quite close to it. It results in increasing its blackhole boundary radius so that the source of radiation now falls within its blackhole boundary.

The question may be asked: what happens to the radiation from the source that was in progress outward and away from the gravitational center? Is energy conserved here? It may be noted here that the net potential that a photon would “see” includes an effective potential equal to ##(q/m)ϕ^{e}## where ##ϕ^{e}## is due to the charge on the blackhole. Value of (q/m) of photon seems to play an essential role here. May be I am confused but there appears to be a consensus among scientists that a charge on a blackhole alters the trajectory of photon near such a blackhole.

Regarding the electro gravitational fields, I did some googling and came across some pertinent information that may be useful:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ele...IxMjk3ajBqMagCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 
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Karmyogi01 said:
It may be noted here that the net potential that a photon would “see” includes an effective potential equal to #(q/m)ϕ^((e))# where #ϕ^((e))# is due to the charge on the blackhole. Value of (q/m) of photon seems to play an essential role here. May be I am confused but there appears to be a consensus among scientists that a charge on a blackhole alters the trajectory of photon near such a blackhole.
You are confused.

The trajectory of a photon from some distant source in the vicinity of a charged black hole is not different from the trajectory of that photon in the vicinity of an electromagnetically neutral black hole (of the same mass).

The trajectory of a charged particle (e.g., an electron) near a charged black hole, of course, would differ from the trajectory of a charged particle near an electromagnetically neutral black hole (of the same mass).

The charge/mass-energy of the photon would be zero, since it has zero charge and non-zero mass-energy, even though it has zero mass. Since mass-energy, and not mass, is generally the relevant quantity for gravity, your confusion may arise from the meaning of "m" in the formula, although it may be that this formula just categorically does not apply to photons.

The primary link in the Google search is to:

Chandra, Ramesh, Electro-Gravitational Blackhole as the Source of CMB, and the Role of Electron Blackhole in the Deterministic View of Nature (July 05, 2024). Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=5310051

As the Google AI result from the linked Google search explains (emphasis in the original):

The theory proposing an electro-gravitational black hole as the source of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) is a fringe idea and not supported by mainstream cosmology. The CMB is widely accepted to be the afterglow of the Big Bang, not the radiation from a black hole.
The view that Nature is deterministic is likewise not a mainstream scientific view. There is overwhelming evidence that quantum mechanics is stochastic rather than deterministic.
 
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Karmyogi01 said:
Regarding the electro gravitational fields, I did some googling and came across some pertinent information that may be useful:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ele...IxMjk3ajBqMagCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
This links to the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) which is simply a preprint server that accepts most any submission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Science_Research_Network). Articles suitable for discussion on Physics Forums must appear in publications listed on Clarivate's Master Journal List. To support your claims regarding the "electrogravitational" field you need to cite papers that appear in one or more of those peer-reviewed journals.
 
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renormalize said:
This links to the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) which is simply a preprint server that accepts most any submission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Science_Research_Network). Articles suitable for discussion on Physics Forums must appear in publications listed on Clarivate's Master Journal List. To support your claims regarding the "electrogravitational" field you need to cite papers that appear in one or more of those peer-reviewed journals.
Also, SSRN, as its name suggests, overwhelmingly publishes non-peer reviewed preprints in the Social Sciences (and humanities) and not in physics.

It is very atypical to try to publish a non-peer reviewed preprint in physics at SSRN. Legitimate physicists whose papers will ultimately be published in peer reviewed journals are almost exclusively posted at arXiv.org, before (or not long after) they are published in a peer reviewed journal.

Even preprints by amateur physics theorists that are unlikely to ever be published in peer reviewed journals (which are not a suitable basis for discussion at Physics Forums) are usually posted at viXra.org and not at SSRN.
 
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ohwilleke said:
The trajectory of a photon from some distant source in the vicinity of a charged black hole is not different from the trajectory of that photon in the vicinity of an electromagnetically neutral black hole (of the same mass).
Even for the neutral photon, there is still the difference between the Reissner-Nordström geometry and the Schwarzschild one.
 
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Karmyogi01 said:
Value of (q/m) of photon seems to play an essential role here
Not really. Mass is not additive in relativity, so it's possible to have two massless light pulses that, taken together, have mass. In principle, adding a massless photon to a black hole increases the hole's mass and gives it some momentum.
Karmyogi01 said:
Is energy conserved here?
Energy conservation is a complicated topic in general relativity. Since the spacetime you are describing is (probably) asymptotically flat then there are (probably) some concepts of conservation of energy available, but I don't think they'll help much in considering the detailed behaviour of your structure.
Karmyogi01 said:
May be I am confused but there appears to be a consensus among scientists that a charge on a blackhole alters the trajectory of photon near such a blackhole.
A charged black hole has a different metric to an uncharged one, but this affects the paths of uncharged particles as well as charged ones. So this should not be read as implying that photons must be charged (you could think of it as the energy of the electric field being a source of gravity which, by the way, means you need an absurdly large charge for any measurable effect). The mass of uncharged particles does not appear in the resulting maths describing their orbits.
 
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Ibix said:
Mass is not additive in relativity, so it's possible to have two massless light pulses that, taken together, have mass. In principle, adding a massless photon to a black hole increases the hole's mass and gives it some momentum.

Energy conservation is a complicated topic in general relativity. Since the spacetime you are describing is (probably) asymptotically flat then there are (probably) some concepts of conservation of energy available, but I don't think they'll help much in considering the detailed behaviour of your structure.

A charged black hole has a different metric to an uncharged one, but this affects the paths of uncharged particles as well as charged ones. So this should not be read as implying that photons must be charged (you could think of it as the energy of the electric field being a source of gravity which, by the way, means you need an absurdly large charge for any measurable effect). The mass of uncharged particles does not appear in the resulting maths describing their orbits.
I wonder to what extent the confusion results from the existence of different definitions of the term "mass" in general relativity from other contexts. In the highlighted language, I would use the term "mass-energy" in this context where there is ambiguity about what definition of mass is involved, rather than the unqualified term "mass", even though using the term "mass" alone would be perfectly fine in circumstances with more context to add meaning to how the term is being used.

A narrow definition of "mass" can be limited to a portion of a single energy density element (T00) of the sixteen elements of the 4x4 stress-energy tensor of GR, while the broadest could include all elements of the stress-energy tensor of GR (and also the gravitational self-interaction effects on the left hand side of Einstein's field equations in the Einstein tensor conventionally denoted by the uppercase letter G).

Basically, it may be helpful and clear up confusion to be more explicit about the distinction between relativistic mass and rest mass (and other definitions of mass). As explained at this Wikipedia link (paragraph breaks added for ease of reading in the Physics Forum interface):

Relativistic mass and rest mass are both traditional concepts in physics, but the relativistic mass corresponds to the total energy.

The relativistic mass is the mass of the system as it would be measured on a scale, but in some cases (such as the box above) this fact remains true only because the system on average must be at rest to be weighed (it must have zero net momentum, which is to say, the measurement is in its center of momentum frame).

For example, if an electron in a cyclotron is moving in circles with a relativistic velocity, the mass of the cyclotron+electron system is increased by the relativistic mass of the electron, not by the electron's rest mass.

But the same is also true of any closed system, such as an electron-and-box, if the electron bounces at high speed inside the box. It is only the lack of total momentum in the system (the system momenta sum to zero) which allows the kinetic energy of the electron to be "weighed".
If the electron is stopped and weighed, or the scale were somehow sent after it, it would not be moving with respect to the scale, and again the relativistic and rest masses would be the same for the single electron (and would be smaller).

In general, relativistic and rest masses are equal only in systems which have no net momentum and the system center of mass is at rest; otherwise they may be different.

The invariant mass is proportional to the value of the total energy in one reference frame, the frame where the object as a whole is at rest (as defined below in terms of center of mass). This is why the invariant mass is the same as the rest mass for single particles.

However, the invariant mass also represents the measured mass when the center of mass is at rest for systems of many particles. This special frame where this occurs is also called the center of momentum frame, and is defined as the inertial frame in which the center of mass of the object is at rest (another way of stating this is that it is the frame in which the momenta of the system's parts add to zero). For compound objects (made of many smaller objects, some of which may be moving) and sets of unbound objects (some of which may also be moving), only the center of mass of the system is required to be at rest, for the object's relativistic mass to be equal to its rest mass.

A so-called massless particle (such as a photon, or a theoretical graviton) moves at the speed of light in every frame of reference. In this case there is no transformation that will bring the particle to rest. The total energy of such particles becomes smaller and smaller in frames which move faster and faster in the same direction. As such, they have no rest mass, because they can never be measured in a frame where they are at rest. This property of having no rest mass is what causes these particles to be termed "massless". However, even massless particles have a relativistic mass, which varies with their observed energy in various frames of reference.

This could be the main source of confusion, even if my assertion that the dynamics of a non-charged photon around an electromagnetically neutral black hole (i.e. a Schwarzschild or Kerr black hole) and an electrically charged black hole (i.e. a Reissner-Nordström or Kerr-Newman black hole) is incorrect. I acknowledge that I'm not particularly deeply immersed in black hole physics.

At least some of the difference between charged black holes and electrically neutral black holes is the difference between
{\displaystyle M}
and
{\displaystyle M_{\rm {irr}}}
which is due to the equivalence of mass and energy, which makes the electric field energy also contribute to the total mass, and I would be thinking of black holes of equivalent mass as black holes that have equivalent mass-energy including electrical field energy.

Incidentally, electrically charged black holes in the real world are expected to have an extremely low charge to mass ratio (which is part of what makes them hard to distinguish from electrically neutral black holes observationally). As explained in this discussion of the Kerr-Newman metric:

[O]ne does not expect that realistic black holes have a significant electric charge (they are expected to have a minuscule positive charge, but only because the proton has a much larger momentum than the electron, and is thus more likely to overcome electrostatic repulsion and be carried by momentum across the horizon).

In the limit of electromagnetic charge approaching zero, a charged black hole behaves like an electromagnetically neutral black hole, and all four of the archetypical black hole types are special cases of Kerr-Newman black holes.

No astronomy observations to date have been able to definitively state that any particular black hole is charged or not charged, one way or the other.

Our most precise black hole astronomy measurements of black holes are probably those that come from the heart of the Milky Way galaxy, and those measurements just aren't precise enough yet to distinguish between various slight differences in black hole theory (not only between the four archetypical black hole types but between quantum gravity and classical gravity variants) , although they are making great process on this front.

Arguably, dual messenger photon-gravitational wave observations of neutron star-black hole mergers (which are very new with the first direct observation of any gravitational wave occurring just a decade ago in 2015), and observations of black holes "eating" nearby stars, come close, but they too are insufficiently precise at this point to make those distinctions.
 
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Charge to mass ratio applies only to particles that have both charge and mass. It makes no sense to speak of the charge to mass ratio of a particle that has zero mass and zero charge.
 
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