China vs. America: Which Country is More Developed?

[Moonbear]

I'm not sure what the point of a per capit air pollution calculation would be - it doesn't make it any easier to breathe in China if you calculate their air pollution to be lower because the population density is higher.

I agree, it doesn't make the air any better, and if anything, argues for them to be even stricter about each individual's efforts toward curbing air pollution, because the population density is so much higher that each little bit adds up to a lot more much faster.

Jason, what exactly is the relevance of someone of Chinese ancestry who is actually a Canadian? They might be completely different from the general population in China, hence the decision to leave the country for another one.

 

[infomax]

Coming to track again
I have always realized that the developing trend of American and european civilization is very reasonable,their bases are firm, they have prepared nice conclusions in every step of their civilization and their development is seem to be more matured
While the chinese with lot of hardship (nearly 20 hrswork) have managed to make frog jump in development , but really is it stable?

 

[JasonRox]

I agree, it doesn't make the air any better, and if anything, argues for them to be even stricter about each individual's efforts toward curbing air pollution, because the population density is so much higher that each little bit adds up to a lot more much faster.

Jason, what exactly is the relevance of someone of Chinese ancestry who is actually a Canadian? They might be completely different from the general population in China, hence the decision to leave the country for another one.

Um... they are all Chinese born. The one that has been here the longest is 7 years and came here at the age 16 and also travels back during that time. Most have been here only 2-3 years at the age of 19-20 or older. Each and every one of them is less wasteful than fellow Canadians. That means something.

 

[Hurkyl]

That means something.

No, it really doesn't.

 

[JasonRox]

No, it really doesn't.

And how does it not... explain.

Canadians here are extremely wasteful and they aren't. It's not a conclusion. It's a sample essentially. All the 20 year olds I see here are extremely wasteful and all of them (Chinese) I've seen are not.

Essentially giving my observation.

 

[JasonRox]

They are communist.

And that implies they won't? Explain please.

 

[JasonRox]

Given the current demands on the UK, US and many other countries regarding emissions and global warming, why should China be any different? I read somewhere once they were having to build 2 coal fired power stations a week to keep up with demand.

Interesting however, read this article, it points out that there are 2 power plants a week, but also that their per person emissions are less than a 'rich' country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6769743.stm

You guys just said it's hard to get data from China... why are you choosing to believe this fact? It's from the UK not China.

 

[lisab]

Coming to track again
I have always realized that the developing trend of American and european civilization is very reasonable,their bases are firm, they have prepared nice conclusions in every step of their civilization and their development is seem to be more matured
While the chinese with lot of hardship (nearly 20 hrswork) have managed to make frog jump in development , but really is it stable?

That's a good point, infomax. A long history of stabilization is a good indication of future stability.

But even though China's *recent* history has been stormy, I think a good case could be made that they have an incredibly long history, and a successful civilization.

 

[humanino]

Essentially giving my observation.

How many individuals ? How are they supposed to faithfully represent the entire population of a country as large as China, and how do you evaluate the significance of your qualitative judgement on their behavior ? Can you quantify wastefulness somehow ? Is your sample not restricted to a handful of highly educated individual who in addition benefited from the opportunity to live in a quite richer country than the one they came from ? Jason, no offense, did you actually study statistical tests ?

 

[Moonbear]

Um... they are all Chinese born. The one that has been here the longest is 7 years and came here at the age 16 and also travels back during that time. Most have been here only 2-3 years at the age of 19-20 or older. Each and every one of them is less wasteful than fellow Canadians. That means something.

It could mean that they are poorer than the average Canadian, so need to be more careful with their budget. Or, it could mean they are more appreciative of the opportunities they have in a new country. Or, it could mean that they have seen the disastrous consequences of many people being wasteful of resources in their own country, and having the education and opportunity to do differently, they are. None of this means that those who have LEFT China are at all representative of the people who have remained there. It could be their vast disagreement with the way things are done in their homeland that they have chosen to leave it to move to Canada.

 

[JasonRox]

How many individuals ? How are they supposed to faithfully represent the entire population of a country as large as China, and how do you evaluate the significance of your qualitative judgement on their behavior ? Can you quantify wastefulness somehow ? Is your sample not restricted to a handful of highly educated individual who in addition benefited from the opportunity to live in a quite richer country than the one they came from ? Jason, no offense, did you actually study statistical tests ?

I thought this was GD.

I'm stating simple observation of behaviour. They don't ever throw a handful of food in the garbage ever. I see Canadians do that all the time.

Not all are highly educated individuals either. There are older adults as adults... like their parents.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/11/23/6445.aspx

http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200916/3464/Chinese-climate-official-hits-out-at-wasteful-and-luxurious-Western-lifestyles

There is no doubt in my mind that waste/pollution measured on a per person basis that the USA would lose. And that's even after China producing the junk for the Americans who waste it.

 

[JasonRox]

It could be their vast disagreement with the way things are done in their homeland that they have chosen to leave it to move to Canada.

If they chose to not be wasteful, coming to Canada is a mistake. Very wasteful people here for sure.

By the age of 6 months, the average Canadian has consumed the same amount of resources as the average person in the developing world consumes in a lifetime.
-Recycling Council of Ontario

http://www.wrwcanada.com/download_facts.htm

I don't think the numbers will be that different than an American baby. Seriously, Canada and America is the home to the wasteful.

 

[infomax]

From jasonRox link


study from the University of Arizona in Tucson indicates that forty to fifty percent of all food ready for harvest never gets eaten.

It would be better if they send those food to starving nation like ethiopia and somalia

 

[JasonRox]

From jasonRox link


study from the University of Arizona in Tucson indicates that forty to fifty percent of all food ready for harvest never gets eaten.

It would be better if they send those food to starving nation like ethiopia and somalia

It's funny because a lot of the waste China produces is actually from the demand we put on them to produce all the junk we actually waste. So essentially, it's our waste. China should try to do it cleaner, but really, we are the heart of the problem.

 

[lisab]

If they chose to not be wasteful, coming to Canada is a mistake. Very wasteful people here for sure.

By the age of 6 months, the average Canadian has consumed the same amount of resources as the average person in the developing world consumes in a lifetime.
-Recycling Council of Ontario

http://www.wrwcanada.com/download_facts.htm

I don't think the numbers will be that different than an American baby. Seriously, Canada and America is the home to the wasteful.

Just curious, Jason...has this changed at all in Canada, in the last few months (since the recession)?

Here in the US, I've noticed tremendous change in the way people approach their use of non-recyclable commodities.

Sorry to be a bit off topic .

 

[infomax]

yes i agree

 

[infomax]

It's funny because a lot of the waste China produces is actually from the demand we put on them to produce all the junk we actually waste. So essentially, it's our waste. China should try to do it cleaner, but really, we are the heart of the problem.

yes i agree

 

[JasonRox]

Just curious, Jason...has this changed at all in Canada, in the last few months (since the recession)?

Here in the US, I've noticed tremendous change in the way people approach their use of non-recyclable commodities.

Sorry to be a bit off topic .

Well, people try to save money but that doesn't mean they are consciously thinking of reducing waste. It's about money all over again. All this waste began because we live in a money hungry economy focused society. It's not all that bad, but it's really hit a breaking point.

I'm actually hoping it gets worse and worse. I hope it hits depression. I think in order for the culture that currently exists here to change, we need something big to happen.

 

[Hurkyl]

I thought this was GD.

GD means "general discussion", not "you're allowed to make bad arguments".

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm stating simple observation of behaviour. They don't ever throw a handful of food in the garbage ever. I see Canadians do that all the time.

As your sample is small and not blind or random, it means nothing to me. If it was (somewhat) larger, blind, and random it would be a good measure of how Canadians of Chinese ancestry act wrt waste. But even then I don't know how much it would tell me about China vs. Canada or Chinese vs. Canadians. You're not controlling for income or the differences between expats and the rest of the population.

There is no doubt in my mind that waste/pollution measured on a per person basis that the USA would lose. And that's even after China producing the junk for the Americans who waste it.

I'm sure you'd find that waste is higher per person in the US and higher per GDP in the PRC.

 

[JasonRox]

As your sample is small and not blind or random, it means nothing to me. If it was (somewhat) larger, blind, and random it would be a good measure of how Canadians of Chinese ancestry act wrt waste. But even then I don't know how much it would tell me about China vs. Canada or Chinese vs. Canadians. You're not controlling for income or the differences between expats and the rest of the population.



I'm sure you'd find that waste is higher per person in the US and higher per GDP in the PRC.

Per GDP... I'm concerned about per person here. Cost of living in the US is very high.

We can't justify the amount of waste going on in Canada or the US.

 

[rootX]

Per GDP... I'm concerned about per person here. Cost of living in the US is very high.

We can't justify the amount of waste going on in Canada or the US.

We cannot justify the amount of wastage going on in Canada or the US because cost of living in US is very high? I don't think that's what you meant but yet I am interested to know what's wrong.

I only read this post and skipped over few others where you only stating your concern about the wastage.
@OP:
You can go to many statistics websites to see where China, US, others are:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Growth.aspx?Symbol=CNY
http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php

The question being asked was stupid so I provided stupid answer :) - China!
You stated somewhere in the beginning that you lack economics knowledge for the reason you asked this question. So, I would ask you to get some knowledge of economics before you use its terms for discussions among your friends.

 

[infomax]

The question being asked was stupid so I provided stupid answer :) - China!
You stated somewhere in the beginning that you lack economics knowledge for the reason you asked this question. So, I would ask you to get some knowledge of economics before you use its terms for discussions among your friends.

why does it really bothers you, cannot I quench my thirst ? It is my right

 

[rootX]

why does it really bothers you, cannot I quench my thirst ? It is my right

That is similar to crackpot. You will find some extremely ignorant/stupid economics news during both booms/recessions. Spreading/accepting wrong information is bad. (Even more dangerous than physics because ignorant people will accept the information for granted)

Do whatever you want as far you have the right information.

 

[JasonRox]

We cannot justify the amount of wastage going on in Canada or the US because cost of living in US is very high? I don't think that's what you meant but yet I am interested to know what's wrong.

I only read this post and skipped over few others where you only stating your concern about the wastage.



@OP:
You can go to many statistics websites to see where China, US, others are:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Growth.aspx?Symbol=CNY
http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php

The question being asked was stupid so I provided stupid answer :) - China!
You stated somewhere in the beginning that you lack economics knowledge for the reason you asked this question. So, I would ask you to get some knowledge of economics before you use its terms for discussions among your friends.

Lots of waste can not be justified period. That's what I meant. High cost of living or not. GDP ratios. Who cares. Should be on a per person basis.

The waste we produce here is ridiculous and everyone here is trying to find some reason to justify it and point at people from other countries who produce less waste per person. Seriously, get real.

There is no reason why a person here should be able to waste more than a Chinese or European or anyone. None at all. It's one planet.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Per GDP... I'm concerned about per person here. Cost of living in the US is very high.

We can't justify the amount of waste going on in Canada or the US.

I don't understand your first paragraph.

I think waste per GDP is a reasonable measurement to consider. As you pointed out, much of the waste produced in China is due to goods destined for export: this credits them with that production. As I see it, there are only two sensible measures here: waste produced per GDP (how efficiently does the country make stuff?) and consumption waste per person (counting waste for imports but not waste for exports; how much waste is caused by each person?). The US fares well, even very well on the first, but poorly on the second.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Personally, I'm much more concerned about resource depletion than waste.

 

[mheslep]

Eventually I'm sure China will pass a clean air act just like England and LA did. What leads us to believe they won't?...

Because despite their development pace it is still a totalitarian dictatorship?

 

[JasonRox]

Because despite their development pace it is still a totalitarian dictatorship?

We are not discussing how they choose to run THEIR country. We are talking about waste.

Totalitarian dictatorship or not says nothing about whether or not they would enforce clean air.

 

[mheslep]

We are not discussing how they choose to run THEIR country. We are talking about waste.

Totalitarian dictatorship or not says nothing about whether or not they would enforce clean air.

That's fallacious JR. There is no "THEIR" country in an totalitarian state.
There is no carrying a 'clean air now' placard in the streets, there's only prison.