Compact Subsets of R .... Sohrab, Proposition 4.1.1 (Lindelof)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around Proposition 4.1.1 from Houshang H. Sohrab's "Basic Real Analysis," specifically focusing on the properties of compact subsets of the real numbers and the implications of countability in the context of open sets and rational numbers. Participants seek clarification on the proof and its components, including the nature of the sets involved and the construction of countable subcollections.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Peter questions the interpretation of the set $$\{ \rho_x \ : \ x \in O \}$$ being countable, suggesting that while the $$x$$'s are uncountable, the values of $$\rho_x$$ are rational and thus countable, leading to an uncountably infinite number of open balls with countably many different radii.
  • Peter seeks clarification on how a countable subcollection $$\{ O_{ \lambda_k } \}_{ k \in \mathbb{N} }$$ can be formed such that $$O = \bigcup_{ k = 1 }^{ \infty } O_{ \lambda_k }$$ and questions the implications of this union.
  • Some participants assert that the set of rational numbers is countable, emphasizing that any subset of rational numbers must also be at most countable, regardless of how it is indexed.
  • There is a reiteration of the point that having uncountably many $$x$$ does not imply uncountability of the corresponding $$\rho_x$$ values, as duplicates exist among the rational numbers.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the set of rational numbers is countable and that any subset of rational numbers must also be at most countable. However, there is disagreement regarding the implications of this countability in relation to the specific questions raised by Peter, particularly concerning the interpretation of the sets and the construction of the countable subcollection.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the nuances of the proof and the implications of countability in the context of the sets discussed. There are unresolved questions about the overall strategy and tactics of the proof, as well as the specific details of how the countable subcollection is derived.

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I am reading Houshang H. Sohrab's book: "Basic Real Analysis" (Second Edition).

I am focused on Chapter 4: Topology of $$\mathbb{R}$$ and Continuity ... ...

I need help in order to fully understand the proof of Proposition 4.1.1...Proposition 4.1.1, some preliminary notes and its proof read as follows:
View attachment 9081
My questions are as follows:Question 1

In the above proof by Sohrab we read the following:

" ... ... Now the set $$\{ \rho_x \ : \ x \in O \} \subset \mathbb{Q}$$ is countable ... ... "

But ... it seems to me that since the $$x$$'s are uncountable that the number of $$\rho_x$$ is uncountable ... but that many (at times infinitely many ... ) have the same values since each is equal to a rational number and these are countable ...

... so in fact there are an uncountably infinite number of open balls $$B_{ \rho_x } (x)$$ ... there are just a countable number of different values for the radii of the open balls ...

Is my interpretation correct ... ?

Question 2

In the above proof by Sohrab we read the following:

" ... ... If for each $$k \in \mathbb{N}$$ we pick $$\lambda_k \in B_{ \rho_k } (x_k) \subset O_{ \lambda_k }$$, then we have a countable subcollection $$\{ O_{ \lambda_k } \}_{ k \in \mathbb{N} } \subset \{ O_\lambda \}_{ \lambda \in \Lambda }$$ which satisfies $$O = \bigcup_{ k = 1 }^{ \infty } O_{ \lambda_k }$$ ... ..."Can someone please explain/demonstrate clearly (preferably in some detail) how the process described actually results in a countable subcollection where $$O = \bigcup_{ k = 1 }^{ \infty } O_{ \lambda_k }$$ ...


... indeed, given that $$\{ O_{ \lambda_k } \}_{ k \in \mathbb{N} } \subset \{ O_\lambda \}_{ \lambda \in \Lambda }$$

... it looks as if $$\bigcup_{ k = 1 }^{ \infty } O_{ \lambda_k } \subset O$$ ... ?

In addition to answers to the two questions, any explanations/clarifications of the overall strategy and tactics of the proof would be very gratefully received ...

Help will be much appreciated ...

Peter
 

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The \rho_n are defined to be rational. The set of all rational numbers is countable so this subset is countable.
 
HallsofIvy said:
The \rho_n are defined to be rational. The set of all rational numbers is countable so this subset is countable.
Thanks HallsofIvy ...

Yes, the $$\rho_n$$ or $$\rho_k$$ are constructed or defined to be rational ... but the $$\rho_x$$ are also defined/constructed to be rational ... so my comments under question 1, I think, are correct ... do you agree ... am I interpreting the situation correctly ...

Can you comment on Question 2 ...?

Peter
 
No, the set of all rational numbers is countable. Any set of rational numbers is at most countable. If a set of rational numbers, $\{r_x\}$, is indexed by "x" from an uncountable set that just means that there are a lot of duplicates- there are uncountably many different "x" such that "$r_x$" are the same.
 
HallsofIvy said:
No, the set of all rational numbers is countable. Any set of rational numbers is at most countable. If a set of rational numbers, $\{r_x\}$, is indexed by "x" from an uncountable set that just means that there are a lot of duplicates- there are uncountably many different "x" such that "$r_x$" are the same.
Thanks HallsofIvy ...

Peter
 

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