News Compassion versus Military Action - Which Will End Global Terrorism?

[outsider]

There is a lot of political critical mass boiling here. As far as any action against Iran goes look at the facts.

In 2004 China and Iran signed a $75 billion dollar oil deal that allows China to develop one of Iran's major oil fields.

China needs oil that's a given. They tried to buy Unocal but were met with too much political opposition. YET:

China holds over $200 billion dollars in U.S. treasury bills. We have to keep selling T-bills to China to finance the war in Iraq.

American companies have been allowed to move the production of products to China that we cannot live without. (everything from can openers to electronic equipment *read some labels)

China has a trade surplus with the U.S. of over $650 billion dollars.

Any military action by either the USA or Israel is going to be opposed by China and at the current time China is holding all of the cards, and the toys, and the microwave ovens, and the coffee makers, and the air conditioners, and the clothing, and just try to find a consumer item that is not made in China.

As far as Iran's ability to build a nuclear weapon goes, they don't even need the blasted nuclear power plants. if they use the centrifuges (supplied by Halliburton along with technical help from Pakistan) and a supply of raw materials, they can build nukes anyway.

So what happens next? Absolutely nothing but big talk and big threats from big mouth politicians.

WOW! Thank You Edward...
The only thing about a debt is that you can decide to not pay it. I don't know if China realizes how worthless those Tbills are if US decides they have enough arms and spaceships to save the significant and just let everyone split the bill. Yes this way of thinking does take a leap.. but space... the final frontier... these are the voyages... yeah I'll stop now.

The guy who borrows all the money... has all the money... who is going to take it from him?

 

[The Smoking Man]

WOW! Thank You Edward...
The only thing about a debt is that you can decide to not pay it. I don't know if China realizes how worthless those Tbills are if US decides they have enough arms and spaceships to save the significant and just let everyone split the bill. Yes this way of thinking does take a leap.. but space... the final frontier... these are the voyages... yeah I'll stop now.

The guy who borrows all the money... has all the money... who is going to take it from him?

The rest of the world when they revalue the dollar to the level of the Lira.

 

[outsider]

The rest of the world when they revalue the dollar to the level of the Lira.

in your opinion, how likely is that?

 

[Smurf]

on their current course, unavoidable.

 

[Skyhunter]

The scenario for a war against Iran goes like this.

Scare the American people again, maybe another terror attack. Link it to Iran.

Now because our conventional force are still bogged down in Iraq, and since Iran has a real army, we start by Strtegically nuking power plants, cities, and evereything else except the oil fields. Then we can move in and have a much smaller population, therefore a much smaller insurgency. This way Haliburton and Chevron can maximize profits.

This may be simplistic but just remember who is the president is.

 

[outsider]

The scenario for a war against Iran goes like this.

Scare the American people again, maybe another terror attack. Link it to Iran.

Now because our conventional force are still bogged down in Iraq, and since Iran has a real army, we start by Strtegically nuking power plants, cities, and evereything else except the oil fields. Then we can move in and have a much smaller population, therefore a much smaller insurgency. This way Haliburton and Chevron can maximize profits.

This may be simplistic but just remember who is the president is.

how were you able to come up with this ingenius plan?

 

[The Smoking Man]

in your opinion, how likely is that?

Extremely likely.

The world has so far switched about 20% of their holdings from USD to EUROS.

You've made a LOT of bad decisions over the decades since the world declared the dollar to be the world currency and there has been a massive switch out of the fear the currency has no backing.

 

[The Smoking Man]

how were you able to come up with this ingenius plan?

Read the news.

The big lie is being concocted already.

We have gone from announcements of Iran and Iraq making peace with one another and working co-operatively to fight terrorism to announcements of arms shipments and insinuations that the Iraqis are dragging their heels on the constitution and putting too much of their religion into it.

Both countries are being condemned for making ovations of peace.

 

[SOS2008]

Extremely likely.

The world has so far switched about 20% of their holdings from USD to EUROS.

You've made a LOT of bad decisions over the decades since the world declared the dollar to be the world currency and there has been a massive switch out of the fear the currency has no backing.

Mostly since 2000...and if you look at this possibility in conjunction with new ties between various countries, such as Iran with China and Russia (as I think you mentioned previously) it should be quite disconcerting to Americans. But no, we continue our record spending (energy bill, highway bill) our poor trade agreements (CAFTA), and of course a foreign policy of aggression.

 

[edward]

WOW! Thank You Edward...
The only thing about a debt is that you can decide to not pay it. I don't know if China realizes how worthless those Tbills are if US decides they have enough arms and spaceships to save the significant and just let everyone split the bill. Yes this way of thinking does take a leap.. but space... the final frontier... these are the voyages... yeah I'll stop now.

The guy who borrows all the money... has all the money... who is going to take it from him?

The U.S. will never have enough arms and spaceships, especially arms. If we don't have the arms China will send their repo man. If we want to build more arms to prevent this ... we sell more T- Bills to China.

All China has to do is stop all shipments of goods to the USA. In six months we will be on our knees. We no longer have factories that make consumer goods, or haven't you noticed.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The U.S. will never have enough arms and spaceships, especially arms. If we don't have the arms China will send their repo man. If we want to build more arms to prevent this ... we sell more T- Bills to China.

All China has to do is stop all shipments of goods to the USA. In six months we will be on our knees. We no longer have factories that make consumer goods, or haven't you noticed.

The loss of Chia-Pets and Pocket Fishermen alone would be crippling!

I wonder if they do cappodemente here?

 

[outsider]

The U.S. will never have enough arms and spaceships, especially arms. If we don't have the arms China will send their repo man. If we want to build more arms to prevent this ... we sell more T- Bills to China.

All China has to do is stop all shipments of goods to the USA. In six months we will be on our knees. We no longer have factories that make consumer goods, or haven't you noticed.

we only need food, shelter, and love to be healthy human beings... everything else is really a novelty... America is packed up with crap... why do you think ebay is so successful?

 

[edward]

we only need food, shelter, and love to be healthy human beings... everything else is really a novelty... America is packed up with crap... why do you think ebay is so successful?

OK let's start with food, all toasters, toaster ovens, microwave ovens, Blenders, food processors, and most cooking utensils ie skillets pots pans etc. are now made in China.

Need shelter: Run down to the Home Depot and buy some lumber and a box of nails quick. OH OH the nails are made in China, we need to get some super glue.

If we could be happy living in home made tents (the commercial ones are made in China) and eating Cambells soup heated over an open flame in grandpa's antique shaving mug we could get by.

 

[SOS2008]

OK let's start with food, all toasters, toaster ovens, microwave ovens, Blenders, food processors, and most cooking utensils ie skillets pots pans etc. are now made in China.

Need shelter: Run down to the Home Depot and buy some lumber and a box of nails quick. OH OH the nails are made in China, we need to get some super glue.

If we could be happy living in home made tents (the commercial ones are made in China) and eating Cambells soup heated over an open flame in grandpa's antique shaving mug we could get by.

Good un. You're preaching to the choir here. I'm the one who says Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a matter of national security. If you look at economic statistics now, you'll see that sectors such as manufacturing are in the toilet. I'll check out the thread on out-sourcing...

 

[Skyhunter]

Getting back on topic.

It will require a combination of military action and compassion. Let's face it, the terrorist's that are already hard core are not going to go through a change of conscience simply because we are more compassionate and understanding.

The best way to reduce the number of future terrorist is a more equitable distribution of the worlds resources. If people are fed and happy and see that others they care for are fed and happy, they are less likely to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up in a subway.

It will not be easy, but the idea that we can coax all the terrorists into Iraq and fight them there is just ludicrous.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Getting back on topic.

It will require a combination of military action and compassion. Let's face it, the terrorist's that are already hard core are not going to go through a change of conscience simply because we are more compassionate and understanding.

Really?

You know that for a fact?

When was this ever tried?

 

[Skyhunter]

Really?

You know that for a fact?

Of course I don't know this for a fact. It is my opinion.

I do believe that there is a point of no return. I believe there are some who would have a change of conscience and others who would not.

My point is that if they are actively engaged in terrorism, have been thoroughly trained and brainwashed, they are not likely to have a change of heart.

When was this ever tried?

Good point. Never as far as I know.

 

[outsider]

OK let's start with food, all toasters, toaster ovens, microwave ovens, Blenders, food processors, and most cooking utensils ie skillets pots pans etc. are now made in China.

Need shelter: Run down to the Home Depot and buy some lumber and a box of nails quick. OH OH the nails are made in China, we need to get some super glue.

If we could be happy living in home made tents (the commercial ones are made in China) and eating Cambells soup heated over an open flame in grandpa's antique shaving mug we could get by.

LOL ... these are all true... what about the glut of product? If we already have it, the need to buy a new one is a WANT and not a NEED. Theres plenty of old junk on ebay, swap meets, and garage sales... America will not tumble due to lack of consumer products... as long as we have agriculture, we can learn to adapt. Give us a reason to start from scratch and create jobs all over again? no?

 

[The Smoking Man]

LOL ... these are all true... what about the glut of product? If we already have it, the need to buy a new one is a WANT and not a NEED. Theres plenty of old junk on ebay, swap meets, and garage sales... America will not tumble due to lack of consumer products... as long as we have agriculture, we can learn to adapt. Give us a reason to start from scratch and create jobs all over again? no?

Do you know that this will put you at the level of Cuba during the embargo? That's why they have such neet cars from the 1950's there.

One problem with the stuff you have though ... it was probably built recently and due to planned obsolesence, will only last about another 6 months.

 

[outsider]

Of course I don't know this for a fact. It is my opinion.

I do believe that there is a point of no return. I believe there are some who would have a change of conscience and others who would not.

My point is that if they are actively engaged in terrorism, have been thoroughly trained and brainwashed, they are not likely to have a change of heart.

Good point. Never as far as I know.

I'd hate to agree with this, but some people are trained from birth to be killers... for them, there is no normalcy (as we know it) or understanding of compassion. They are nothing more than human droids (soldiers for life). Very sad a whole generation of these soldiers must pass... unless they are subjected to further brainwashing.

TSM, it will take a lot of education... IMO, proper martial arts training would support this understanding. But I agree, too, that we have to start somewhere.

 

[outsider]

Do you know that this will put you at the level of Cuba during the embargo? That's why they have such neet cars from the 1950's there.

One problem with the stuff you have though ... it was probably built recently and due to planned obsolesence, will only last about another 6 months.

Well, Cuba is a nice place (so I hear). And perhaps we will have to revert back to some basic lifestyles, this may encourage technology to make several advances toward a less consumer driven, media hungry society? Efficient use of supplies and personal responsibility... the propoganda could be (to the effect of): "contribute to the country by using less".

I'm still a wishful thinker... but the definition of stupidity - doing the same thing over and over... (yeah, you know the rest).

 

[The Smoking Man]

I'd hate to agree with this, but some people are trained from birth to be killers... for them, there is no normalcy (as we know it) or understanding of compassion. They are nothing more than human droids (soldiers for life). Very sad a whole generation of these soldiers must pass... unless they are subjected to further brainwashing.

Rrrrriiiight. The Iraqui insurgents have been trained from birth to fight America.

TSM, it will take a lot of education... IMO, proper martial arts training would support this understanding. But I agree, too, that we have to start somewhere.

Oh joy, I was a martial arts teacher for 20 years. What would you like to know?

 

[Smurf]

Well, Cuba is a nice place (so I hear). And perhaps we will have to revert back to some basic lifestyles, this may encourage technology to make several advances toward a less consumer driven, media hungry society? Efficient use of supplies and personal responsibility... the propoganda could be (to the effect of): "contribute to the country by using less".

For some reason I forsee a much less... 'happy' result from a Chinese embargo on the US.

 

[outsider]

For some reason I forsee a much less... 'happy' result from a Chinese embargo on the US.

I'm not saying that it would be easy...

 

[outsider]

Rrrrriiiight. The Iraqui insurgents have been trained from birth to fight America.

well, if you were born to war, and all you live everyday is war... then war is what you know... what other options do they have?

Oh joy, I was a martial arts teacher for 20 years. What would you like to know?

Don't you train people to be stronger, but not abuse the power? how do you maintain that people remain responsible with their abilities?

 

[Art]

I do believe that there is a point of no return. I believe there are some who would have a change of conscience and others who would not.

My point is that if they are actively engaged in terrorism, have been thoroughly trained and brainwashed, they are not likely to have a change of heart.

Good point. Never as far as I know.

Funnily enough it has been tried and what's more it even worked. Ref the Provisional IRA.

 

[Smurf]

well, if you were born to war, and all you live everyday is war... then war is what you know... what other options do they have?

Okay, if you find someone who's lived everyday at war, someone who hasn't ached for home when away fighting, someone who doesn't know that there's anything else to life... Well, get them laid for starts, that might open their eyes. Everyone can always learn new things.

 

[AntonioChrist]

I read the article

Hey kat,

I still don't have an axe to grind, but I saw a report that I found really chilling just now and it applies directly to you comment about an attack on Iran:


Check the link.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050802&articleId=791

I thought I would post it for anyone's interest that is following along. I don't know how reliable the assertion is, that Cheney is asking for attack plans, and I don't know how reliable the group is that reported this.

Of course there is the argument that we need to have plans ready for any contingency... But the subtext of the report sounds a lot more ominous than that. Why is a nuclear response on Tehran being proposed a priori for another terrorist attack from any comer? Wouldn't we analyze a terrorist attack afterwards, and best decide how to respond, depending on who perpetrated the attack, for example?

I hesitated posting this, because I don't want to "get into it." But then, I am frankly curious for your honest reaction to the report. Take off your conservative hat for a minute and just read the report as a human being. How does it strike you? Anyone else?

(Also see here: http://news.baou.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=20383 )

Doesnt seem too far fetched, remeber a historical blip in the American Air Force history, Hiroshima and Tagiioky, excuse the spelling but you know what I am talking abot, that was a pre-emptive strike to deter further attack from the Japanese. It seems that the nuclear boms used were not exactly needed, more like a test to see what the after effect of nuclear radiation would be on humans. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ari Force has a new bomb it wants to test. It concellation the towns and the people that experinced these horrifc attacks were able to rebuild their land to an impressive degree, and also progressed their philosophical social awareness, that war and the threat of it, is neither noble nor justified, and that the loss of one life is as great and meaning full as 10, 000, exibited in the suicide of the Japanese general, in respect for his decision to further withstand American infultration against his people. It seems that it is always America that is in need to defend human rights, yet it is always at the expense of others.

We should all perhaps consider this, "We are born, therefore we are alive, our existence is our gift and our ability to survive is our tool to which we maintain our presence, but must anyone have the ability or the perogative to jeopdise these fundamental rights?"

Regards

A.Christ

 

[AntonioChrist]

American Economy sustained by international commerce

LOL ... these are all true... what about the glut of product? If we already have it, the need to buy a new one is a WANT and not a NEED. Theres plenty of old junk on ebay, swap meets, and garage sales... America will not tumble due to lack of consumer products... as long as we have agriculture, we can learn to adapt. Give us a reason to start from scratch and create jobs all over again? no?

It is of the educated opinion that Americas political structure can not sustain a collapse.

Hypothetically: If Europe, east Asia, and soon the other independent economic systems were to say to America **** You no more importing or exporting. Americans would be left in a situation where they would have to support themselves. It is fact that you debt is so high that if you were too loose roughly 40-60% of your business capacity, ie, that of international importing and exporting the economic situation, america would in reality have no money, therefore taxes would have to go up! If you know anything about the American economy you would realize that America isn't actually self-sufficient, if it were then, its Governments would not have to win debates through roadshows and pantomime promotion, in fact no government republic or democratic would win an election if it knew taxes had to be increased, therefore its entire political structure would fall to pieces, there would be no money to promote policies, finance campaigns across its states or support its people in economic distress. If America was as powerful and rich as it assumes, why is most of its national income spent on war fare, Because they are so scared of this happening that they would rather blow the world to pieces than admit defeat. If America is to support itself without external influence then it needs the money and infrastructure to do so. America does not have a welfare state, nor does it have the capacity to accommodate its population. This is already obvious seen in the Towns that are missed out by the campaign trail, forgotten because they are the reality of Americas situation. The towns that aren't campaigned in are decided on the fact that the people in it are not affected by the government, if the governments cease to exist, which would indefinitely happen if there was no money to substantiate their existence then the whole country would be plunged into the same situation, and believe it or not, the political knowledge of the American people in many peoples opinions is one of ignorance and delusion, not to mention the fact they all have guns, anyone with anything will end up either trying to secure and protect their own piece or want to take more from those who have more of it.

P.S i am not a fanaticist or an American hater but the sooner America realizes a world exist beyond their own and that people just like them, with the same born given rights as they have exist, and that ignoring that they exist or that when they do acknowledge them they fear their abilities, is almost a crime against humanity.

No harm or insult intended

Regards

A.Christ

 

[AntonioChrist]

Quick note

Funnily enough it has been tried and what's more it even worked. Ref the Provisional IRA.

The I.R.A. is politically disbanded and if anyone in N. Ireland was to so much as sneeze out of place the cease fire would be broken, America would therefore be obliged to put the Jerry Adams, and his band of merry men in the same category as Osama, Hussein, and all the other TERRORISTS they are suppressing and launching tactical strikes against. The provisionals in all their glory would in reality **** a brick, shown in the fact that they need to beat up kids on the streets of Belfast for drinking alcohol without permission. The I.R.A. and its associated fractions is no longer, forget about them or they will become symbols like Guy Fawkes. Remember him, the original plotter, in England they have a day where he is burnt at a stake, fireworks are released and people sing, shout, and rejoice his death and the monarchy.