Confused about Poynting Theorem and Retarded field.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Poynting's theorem and the concept of retarded fields in the context of electromagnetic fields as presented in Griffiths' "Introduction to Electrodynamics." Participants explore the relationship between energy flow into a defined volume and the use of different integrals to calculate this energy, raising questions about the appropriateness of using stored energy versus the Poynting vector.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents equations from Griffiths' book related to the Poynting theorem and retarded fields, questioning the use of stored energy in the calculation of energy flow into a box.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about the choice of integrals, noting that the book uses potential energy rather than the surface integral of the Poynting vector, which they believe is more appropriate for calculating energy flow.
  • Several participants clarify terminology, with one explaining that "+ve" and "-ve" refer to positive and negative values, respectively.
  • A participant suggests using the wave equation for the vector potential to find the current density, indicating that if the current density is zero, it implies that the product of current density and electric field is also zero, leading to a potential equality of the two integrals in question.
  • Concerns are raised about the setup being confusing, particularly at the point where x equals zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriate method for calculating energy flow, with some favoring the use of the Poynting vector and others questioning the book's approach of using stored energy. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential confusion regarding the definitions and assumptions involved in the problem setup, particularly related to the behavior of fields at specific points and the implications of using different mathematical approaches.

yungman
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This is not homework even thought this is an example in the book of Griffiths "Introduction of Electrodynamics" 3rd edition. This is a mix retarded field and Poynting theorem question:

\vec E \cdot \vec J \;=\;-\frac 1 2 \frac {\partial}{\partial t} ( \epislon_0 E^2 +\frac 1 {\mu_0} B^2) \;-\;\frac 1 {\mu_0} \nabla \cdot (\vec E X \vec B) (8.8)

\frac {dW}{dt} \;=\; \int _{v'} (\vec E \cdot \vec J) d \vec {v'} \;=\; -\frac 1 2 \frac {\partial}{\partial t} \int _{v'} ( \epsilon_0 E^2 +\frac 1 {\mu_0} B^2) d \vec {v'}\;-\;\frac 1 {\mu_0} \int _{s'} (\vec E X \vec B) d \vec {s'} (8.9)




In this example, the book given:
V=0,\;\;\hbox{ and } \;\;\vec A=\frac{\mu_0 k}{4c}(ct-|x|)^2 \hat z \;\hbox { for x = +ve and }\;\; \vec A=0 \;\;\hbox { for x = -ve.}

c=\frac 1 {\sqrt{\mu_0 \epsilon_0}}

From this, you get:

\vec E= -\frac {\partial \vec A}{\partial t} \;=\; -\frac {\mu_0 k}{2} (ct-|x|)\hat z \;\;\;\hbox { and }\;\;\; \vec B = \nabla X \vec A = ^+_- \hat y \frac{\mu_0 k}{2c}(ct-|x|)



Then the book want to determine the energy per unit time flowing into a box between t1 and t2 with given:

1) Dimensions of the box are 0<y<w, 0<z<l and d<x<(d+h) where w,l, d and h are all +ve number.

2) t1= d/c and t2 =(d+h)/c where c=\frac 1 {\sqrt{\epsilon_0 \mu_0}}.

Since x is +ve and t1= d/c and t2 =(d+h)/c therefore:

\vec E= -\frac {\mu_0 k}{2} (d+h-x)\hat z \;\;\;\hbox { and }\;\;\; \vec B = \hat y \frac{\mu_0 k}{2c}(d+h-x)



Since the question is energy flow into the box, I use second integration term of (8.9)
W \;=\; [\frac 1 {\mu_0} \int _{s&#039;} (\vec E X \vec B) d \vec {s&#039;}]




But the book do this instead:

W\;=\; \frac 1 2 \int _{v&#039;} ( \epsilon_0 E^2 + \frac 1 {\mu_0} B^2) d v&#039;


My understanding is \frac 1 {\mu_0} \int _{s&#039;} (\vec E X \vec B) d \vec {s&#039;} is the EM power flowing through the surface s&#039;. Why is the book use the stored energy or the energy to assemble the charge and current to do the calculation? This is retarded field problem where the EM field just reach the box at t1 and nothing exit the box at t2.
 
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Anyone please?

I did more reading, even the examples from the book use the surface integral of the Poynting Vector to find the energy per unit time cross the surface. But here the book use the potential energy of the EM field which I cannot agree.
 
what is ve?
 
kcdodd said:
what is ve?

+ve and -ve is just lazy way to say possitive and negative resp.
 
Do you mean that x = +ve means x > 0?

What I was going to say is that you can use the wave equation for the vector potential to find the current density.

\nabla^2\vec{A} - \frac{1}{c^2}\partial^2_t\vec{A} = -\mu_0\vec{J}

And it looks to me like like J = 0, which would mean J*E = 0 too, which means the two integrals must be equal in magnitude. However the setup is still a bit confusing to me, there is funny business at x=0.
 

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