Confusion about adding angular velocities

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the addition of angular velocities, particularly in the context of a large disc and a smaller disc attached to it. Participants explore the concepts of angular velocity relative to different frames of reference, including the ground and the discs themselves. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects of rigid body dynamics and seeks clarification on how angular velocities interact in such systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where a large orange disc rotates with angular velocity A and a small green disc rotates with angular velocity B, questioning how to calculate the angular velocity of the green disc relative to the ground.
  • Another participant suggests that if both discs are rotating anticlockwise, the sum of their angular velocities would be 2 radians per second, contradicting the initial claim of zero angular velocity.
  • A distinction is made between orbital angular velocity, which describes how fast a point revolves around a fixed origin, and spin angular velocity, which describes how fast a rigid body rotates about its center of rotation.
  • One participant proposes focusing on the relative rotation of the green disc and the shaft it is attached to, suggesting that this perspective may clarify the confusion regarding the orbiting motion.
  • A later reply inquires whether rigid body dynamics, such as Euler's equations, primarily concern spin angular velocity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the addition of angular velocities and the implications of angular velocity being zero while still describing an orbiting motion. There is no consensus on how to reconcile these concepts, indicating ongoing uncertainty and debate.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference different types of angular velocity and their implications, but there remains ambiguity regarding the definitions and applications in the context of the discussion. The relationship between the angular velocities and the motion of the discs is not fully resolved.

Bastian1978
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TL;DR
I'm confused about how adding angular velocities works, in an example situation.
I'm trying to learn about adding angular velocities, and I'm confused about something. In this diagram...
https://i.sstatic.net/S6C03.png
there is a large orange disc rotating with angular velocity A (relative to the ground), and attached to the large orange disc is a small green disc, which is rotating at angular velocity B (relative to the large orange disc).
My understanding is that if I want to calculate the angular velocity of the small green disc, relative to the ground, then I would add A and B.
In the example I'm imagining, A is rotating anticlockwise at 1 radian per second, and B is rotating clockwise at 1 radian per second. So if I add A and B, I would get zero. I think that makes sense, since it'd mean that the orientation of the small green disc isn't changing relative to the ground.
The part that confuses me is that even though the orientation of the small green disc isn't changing relative to the ground (because its angular velocity relative to the ground is zero), if we imagine a point on the ground positioned at the centre of the large orange disc, the small green disc would be orbiting that point. So I don't understand how the green disc can be orbiting a point and yet have an angular velocity of zero?
I think I'm misunderstanding something fundamental about this, so if anyone could help me understand it better, that'd be great.
Also, I'd really appreciate being pointed to some reference material about this, particularly about how addition of angular velocity vectors works.
Thanks!
 
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Bastian1978 said:
In the example I'm imagining, A is rotating anticlockwise at 1 radian per second, and B is rotating clockwise at 1 radian per second. So if I add A and B, I would get zero. I think that makes sense, since it'd mean that the orientation of the small green disc isn't changing relative to the ground.
If fixed to an orbiting disc that is not rotating, the ground directions do not change, north is always in the same direction.

In the diagram they are both rotating anticlockwise, the sum is 2 radians/sec.
 
Bastian1978 said:
So I don't understand how the green disc can be orbiting a point and yet have an angular velocity of zero?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_velocity
Wikipedia said:
There are two types of angular velocity:
  • Orbital angular velocity refers to how fast a point object revolves about a fixed origin, i.e. the time rate of change of its angular position relative to the origin.
  • Spin angular velocity refers to how fast a rigid body rotates with respect to its center of rotation and is independent of the choice of origin, in contrast to orbital angular velocity.
 
You could also pay attention only to the relative rotation of the small green disc and the shaft that holds it.
That would remove the confusing orbit trajectory of that shaft (about which the small green disc "knows" nothing).

That shaft would be fixed or would rotate with angular velocity A relative to the ground.
Any other translational movement of the shaft would not be relevant to that green disc-shaft relative rotation.
 

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