Could hedgehogs evolving to avoid cars be a sign of ongoing evolution?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Desiree
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Evolution
AI Thread Summary
Hedgehogs evolving to avoid cars raises questions about ongoing human evolution. While evolution is a continuous process, its predictive power is limited, particularly for complex organisms like humans. Current human survival is less about fitness due to medical advancements, leading to speculation that significant evolutionary changes may not occur in the near future. However, as global mixing of populations increases, genetic diversity may rise, potentially leading to new combinations of traits. Overall, evolution persists, influenced by environmental changes and societal factors, but its outcomes for humans remain uncertain.
  • #51
DaveC426913 said:
I thought there was an element of selection too. And heredity.

But in the case of humans with technology, the ones who are breeding and propogating their genes are not the ones who are under selective pressure. And they're not passing on traits that they're accumulating.

Hm. I'm using hte wrong words. I just mean that an increase in a given gene in the population has become decoupled from the selection process.
Hey Dave,

The fact of biological evolution is simply the change in allele frequencies in a given population from generation to generation.

The theory of evolution, explains why and how these changes occur. For example, one such aspect is Natural selection. Which occurs when Darwin's 4 postulates are met. Those being;
1. Individuals within a population vary
2. Some of that variance is passed on
3. More offpsring are produced than can be supported by the environment
4. Survival is not random, the best combinations of variation are more likely to survive and reproduce.

Its important to note however, that we have come a long way since Darwin's day and we know that NS is not the only selection process nor determinant frequencies of a evolutionary lineage. Things like sexual selection, genetic drift, epigentic inheritance (though this is a much newer idea, there is some interesting evidence nonetheless) all play important rolls in how allele frequencies are maintained.

People quickly get confused when confronted with this definition of "evolution", because people tend to think of evolution in snap shots (really a fault of our nervous system imo). I find it best, when explaining how these small changes in allele frequency manifest to make the biodiversity present on Earth today to use an analogy.

I like color bars for illustrating an evolutionary lineage the most, so bare with me for a moment while I explain. It also, imo, better explains transitional fossils as well.

First I think it maybe important to define what we are talking about here. What is a transitional form or fossil? Or even a missing link for that matter?

To understand this we need to understand a bit about species, more importantly lineages.

All life today and throughout the history of Earth can be thought of as a continuation or a branching of a lineage. Species is a concept we use to making talking about organisms easier. Species are not real, it is just a man made concept given name. The point where one species begins in history and another ends is arbitrary, because a species is not a set thing --We think this is so, because our perception of time and our short stay here on earth.

Its best to describe life as a descendant of a lineage. A lineage therefore, is a ancestor and all of his descendants --An unbroken line. In this case though, we are referring to populations as ancestors and populations as the descendants.
http://mediagods.com/tools/images/spectrum.jpg
I think the easiest way to picture it is to think about the color spectrum.

(For the sake of me not having to create a new color bar with a time scale, please imagine time 0 starts on the left hand side and increase going right to the end, which represents present day)

He we can think of the ancestor as one single point (a hue, saturation and value) on the left hand side. The population descendants then are the colors that follow toward the right. Each point is slightly different from the first, Just as in biology each generation's allele frequencies slightly differ from their parent generation.

We apply the term species to a whole grouping of colors, the species red for instance. But in reality each generation is slightly modified from the next, such that we have this slow transition from color to color (what we might collectively lump together as species).

This then means, that each slight change in gradient is a transitional form. Because looking at the past, we can see in every "color generation" slight modification from the previous generation.
This also means that every generation is a transitional form.

The consequence of this is that "transitional forms" as you and other creationists demand is a human construct which only is representative of a snap-shot of evolutionary history --In hindsight as well.

The other consequence of this is that all fossils are transitional, as they are representative of only that generation of organisms.

For example, were I to find a fossil of the RGB value FF3030 which corresponds to the color:
firebrick1_w.gif


then I know (with the completeness of this color spectrum) that it is transitional. A transition between the populations FF3029 and FF3031. Granted the 3 populations may look nearly identical to the naked eye, but at the populations genomic level they differ.

So you ask to see a transitional fossil? Head to your nearest limestone quarry and spend some time looking at the stones --All of those fossils encapsulated for time immemorial are your evidence.Let's talk for a moment of missing links and why this is such a poor concept.

Often growing up we were taught science is "searching for the missing link". One day well find it and piece all of our evolutionary history together. This is a lie, one created by media and high school science teachers who seemed to lack and interest in teaching real science.

Missing link implies evolution is a large step process. Going back to the color bar, we might say the missing link between the "red and green species". But, if we find a representative of that "yellow species" what have we done? We have opened the door for the need to find two more missing links, one on either side of the representative yellow species.

Whats worse, is the concept implies that our color evolutionary history went from red to yellow to green. What we have done is gloss over the thousands of slightly different hues that occur in between them.

Edit: apologies not sure how to display a picture, is that allowed here?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Biology news on Phys.org
  • #52
shamrock5585 said:
the concept of natural selection is pretty complex in a broad view but i ask... where does natural selection come into play for humans anymore? I've heard that it is predicted that humans may not need their pinky toe and in the future we will no longer have them... but why would that be... if some genetic mutation came about that brought a human with only 8 toes... why would that person me anymore fit than a regular human... that person would would breed and so would people with 10 toes... there is nothing that makes that person more or less fit for the environment so no selection would occur... humans make no selection at all... we select that all humans have the right to be alive and so nature seems to not intervene... ugly and stupid people still reproduce (in fact more than smart people haha) and they probably always will... it may be seen that a person with blonde hair and blue eyes and an IQ of 150+ to be more fit than others but humans have overcome nature to where we can manipulate it to an extent and make our own selection... so no evolution occurs to make a blonde hair blue eyed genius survive and reproduce more than a 400 pound unable to walk person with multicolored skin and smells like garbage... some freak will have a fetish for it and they will reproduce haha... no natural selection

it seems so clear to me but i am very open for others to poke holes in my argument, maybe give me some insight.

You're right NS is very complex, much more so than your description here. Humans very much indeed still have selection pressures being exerted on us, they may just not be as simple and obvious as some of those found in the animal kingdom.

For instance, the malaria parasite kills millions of people a year, mostly children and mostly people who have yet to reach a reproductive age. This then supports selection for sickle cell heterozygous genotype, which bequeaths individuals who are carriers of the disease an increased resistance to the parasite.

We would expect, or predict even, that in this region of the world we would also see an increase in the frequency of those with Sickle cell. And we do, its rather interesting to look at the overlay maps of SCA and malaria and see the evidence of ongoing human evolution.

In fact, any time some dies before reproductive age due to "natural" causes (disease, genetic abnormality etc) we can say that natural selection is acting upon our populations. Because in those cases survival and reproduction is not random, those combinations of variation are removed from the population and such combinations are no longer passed on.
 
  • #53
bobze said:
... because people tend to think of evolution in snap shots (really a fault of our nervous system imo).

It's more than that I'd say. If for no other reason than the fact that the fossil evidence is so terribly incomplete despite our trips to the quarries. What we are presented with today are incomplete and highly fragmented specimens. Snapshots at best - more like hints at snapshots seen through a glass darkly. We are in most cases left to infer tremendous leaps over the periods of thousands to millions of generations that may be represented in inferred successors. Its a picture that is so sparse, that inferring any linkage still leaves the tree extraordinarily sparse.

If the fossil record recorded all of the species and generations, not to mention the continuum of ecosystems, big and small, that have sustained or pressured them all, then we would require another way to deal with all that massive detail than the sparse data set we currently have to work with.
 
  • #54
bobze said:
Hey Dave, ...
...
The consequence of this is that "transitional forms" as you and other creationists demand is a human construct which only is representative of a snap-shot of evolutionary history --In hindsight as well.
...

Wow! Are you accusing Dave of being a creationist??! :smile:


I see no creationists or ID'ers in this room...<looks over shoulder>
 
  • #55
BoomBoom said:
Wow! Are you accusing Dave of being a creationist??! :smile:


I see no creationists or ID'ers in this room...<looks over shoulder>

No I am not, that is another post I have made and I copy and pasted much of it over.
 
  • #56
bobze said:
You're right NS is very complex, much more so than your description here. Humans very much indeed still have selection pressures being exerted on us, they may just not be as simple and obvious as some of those found in the animal kingdom.

For instance, the malaria parasite kills millions of people a year, mostly children and mostly people who have yet to reach a reproductive age. This then supports selection for sickle cell heterozygous genotype, which bequeaths individuals who are carriers of the disease an increased resistance to the parasite.

We would expect, or predict even, that in this region of the world we would also see an increase in the frequency of those with Sickle cell. And we do, its rather interesting to look at the overlay maps of SCA and malaria and see the evidence of ongoing human evolution.

In fact, any time some dies before reproductive age due to "natural" causes (disease, genetic abnormality etc) we can say that natural selection is acting upon our populations. Because in those cases survival and reproduction is not random, those combinations of variation are removed from the population and such combinations are no longer passed on.

i guess you read my first post but skipped my second one about immune system evolution... this is evolution but still there is human intervention involved. There may be other things that come into play that make sickle cell appear more frequently as well...
I guess i ask the question, will humans evolve physically in a sense where skin, or physical features will change? I lean towards the implication that we won't due to our unnatrual intervening. but who knows after a millions years... a hundred seems long to me and that is but a fraction of the time it actually takes.
 
  • #57
As some others have pointed out in this thread, humans won't be around for much longer. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/singularity/clash/"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #58
Count Iblis said:
As some others have pointed out in this thread, humans won't be around for much longer. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/singularity/clash/"

I'd say that de Garis is merely echoing Azimov and the I Robot view of things. Not exactly original. It makes a good movie, but such artilects in practice will undoubtedly require people, unlike our lack of need for gnats. If the artilects would ever come to such conclusions, then they wouldn't be so smart after all. If they were really smart as ge Garis fantasizes about they would recognize the marvelous construction of our chemistry and ability to heal and self reproduce; the extraordinary dexterity to work with things big and small to shape the world around us; to evolve to meet the pressures of changing conditions. And the most daunting of all they would recognize if they were created by us they could be destroyed by us.

I'd say that they would need us so much in fact that I doubt they would try to do away with us so much as try to help us from doing away with ourselves. After all entropy is a relentless business, and they would need all the help that they can get to carry on.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #59
LowlyPion said:
I'd say that de Garis is merely echoing Azimov and the I Robot view of things. Not exactly original. It makes a good movie, but such artilects in practice will undoubtedly require people, unlike our lack of need for gnats. If the artilects would ever come to such conclusions, then they wouldn't be so smart after all. If they were really smart as ge Garis fantasizes about they would recognize the marvelous construction of our chemistry and ability to heal and self reproduce; the extraordinary dexterity to work with things big and small to shape the world around us; to evolve to meet the pressures of changing conditions. And the most daunting of all they would recognize if they were created by us they could be destroyed by us.

I'd say that they would need us so much in fact that I doubt they would try to do away with us so much as try to help us from doing away with ourselves. After all entropy is a relentless business, and they would need all the help that they can get to carry on.

It's the economy, stupid :smile:

There will be a rapid increase in the intellectual capacity of the artilects. Economic competition will be the main driving force. When artificial intelligence outperformes humans intelligence a CEO will want to replace his biological employees by artilects who work for free. If he doesn't want to do that for ethical reasons, his competitor will and he will go out of business.

So, there will be people who will become enormously powerful persons thanks to the artilects. They'll control a major fraction of the world's economy. Now when these CEOs have meetings in their board rooms, only the CEO is a human being, the rest are artilects. After all, humans are much dumber and would never be qualified enough to take part in the discussions.

But then, the CEO him/herself is a human being, so he/she has no real input in what decisions are taken, because if the CEO is intelligent enough to have a real input, then that implies that his/her articlects are not very intelligent, so the company wouldn't last long.

We thus end up in a situation where the artilects are taking all the decisions, the humans are kept alive by an infrastructure they do not control. They could not control it because it is based in technology that was never designed by humans. Also going back to the old system is no option because the old generation of humans who were still in control of the old infrastructure have died out.

So, we'll have become totally dependent of the artilects, like animals in a Zoo. We can only hope that our descendants will be treated better than the people in the film Logan's run.
 
  • #60
u have an interesting view on things... stop doing drugs!
 
  • #61
I have read "pop" books from the experts.
-------
Sean B. Carroll has addressed the role of DNA in his book, “The Making of the Fittest”. He even has an excerpt on the web.
The Making of the Fittest
http://seanbcarroll.com/books/The_Making_of_the_Fittest/excerpt/
--------
Martin Kenneth Jones has written about:
“The molecule hunt: Archaeology and the search for ancient DNA.”, London: Allen Lane
Those educated in the new field of Bioarchaeology are probably aware of the work being done at …
http://www.arch.cam.ac.uk/pittrivers/
The George Pitt-Rivers Laboratory for Bioarchaeology accommodates a diverse range of projects from various parts of the world.

You might be interested in this recent broadcast, (22 February 2007), This week, “In Conversation” Martin Jones traces the origin of ancient crops.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/inconversation/stories/2007/1847869.htm
========
I'm sure that evolution is still going on and that the researchers will be presenting us many surprises in the near future.
jal
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #62
There was a snippet on a T.V. programme yesterday regarding hedgehogs.Unfortunately a lot of them get killed on U.K. roads because most of them. freeze when headlights are approaching.Apparently, however, it has been recently noticed that more of them make a run for it and avoid getting squashed.Hopefully this running reflex is passed on.Is this a nice example of evolution at work?
 
Back
Top