Could this experiment prove special relativity to be wrong?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of an experiment that some participants claim could challenge the validity of special relativity. The conversation explores concepts related to electric and magnetic fields, the nature of measurements in different reference frames, and the interpretation of experimental results. Theoretical and experimental perspectives are examined, with a focus on the relationship between moving charged objects and the fields they produce.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if an observer moves with a charged object, the object appears static, leading to the conclusion that no magnetic field is detected, which raises questions about the nature of electric and magnetic fields.
  • Another participant counters that the lack of frame-invariant meaning to "magnetic field" or "electric field" is well understood within the framework of special relativity, indicating that measurements can vary based on the observer's frame of reference.
  • Some participants assert that special relativity explains the experimental results, particularly through the invariance of Maxwell's equations under Lorentz transformations.
  • Concerns are raised about the validity of the referenced experiment, with requests for citations and critiques of its quality and relevance to the discussion of special relativity.
  • One participant argues that the experiment's results do not necessitate consideration of relativistic effects at low speeds, suggesting that the findings may not be significant in the context of special relativity.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the measurements taken do not definitively categorize forces as electric or magnetic, suggesting a need for a deeper understanding of special relativity.
  • Disagreement arises regarding the interpretation of the experimental results, with some asserting that a detected voltage indicates a magnetic field, while others argue it does not contradict special relativity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the implications of the referenced experiment on special relativity. There is no consensus on whether the experiment challenges special relativity or whether the results can be adequately explained within its framework.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the referenced experiment's presentation, including its publication in Chinese and the perceived quality of the evidence provided. Participants note that the experiment's findings may not meet the standards required to challenge established principles of special relativity.

Steven2007
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Think about an electric charged object moves linely, it will produce current hence the magnetic field.

But if the obserser moves together with the electron charged object, so there is no relative movement between them, that means the electric charged object is static to the observer, hence there is no current and no magnetic field to the observer.

What does that mean? It means that if you bound a magnetic field detector with the object, the detector will not detect the magnetic filed, but if you separate them, the detector will detect the magnetic field! That is unbelievable!

In fact it was an done experiment by a group of researchers and it proved the bounded detector could detect the magnetic field.

I think that means "ether" may be exist, and a lot of concepts might be different as defined, like space, speed, time etc.
 
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No, that just means there is no frame-invariant meaning to "there is a magnetic field" or "there is an electric field". The magnetic field in one frame, maybe an electric field in another frame. Its correct that you may measure the magnetic field but the measurement doesn't come with the label "magnetic field"!
Its a very well known situation which can be addressed with special relativity very well. See here and here!
 
In fact it is special relativity (the fact the Maxwell Equations are invariant under Lorentz Transformations) what explains those experimental results. :-)
 
Steven2007 said:
In fact it was an done experiment by a group of researchers and it proved the bounded detector could detect the magnetic field.
Please provide the reference for this claim.
 
DaleSpam said:
Please provide the reference for this claim.
Hi DaleSpam,

The reference is published in Chinese, I have tried to find the English version but failed. The link is here
<<unacceptable link removed>>

It has some discription in English:

"
The Experiments Which is Contradictory of the Special Theory of Relativity

Zhu Yong Qiang

(Department of Physics, Fudan University, Shanghai, 20433) Hao Ji

(Shanghai East electromagnetic wave’s research institute, shanghai, 202150)
Abstract: The paper introduce the successful two experiments in noearch’s inertia system: one is the experiment of used the smashed electro magnetic wave to determine the self-velosity in any vehide on the earth, another is the experiment of the regerence somebody following up the motion of charged body can determine the week magnetic by the motion of charged body.

Key Word: the special theory of relativity, the SEW (smashed electro magnetic wave) , reference somebody following up the motion of charged body.
"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Shyan said:
No, that just means there is no frame-invariant meaning to "there is a magnetic field" or "there is an electric field". The magnetic field in one frame, maybe an electric field in another frame. Its correct that you may measure the magnetic field but the measurement doesn't come with the label "magnetic field"!
Its a very well known situation which can be addressed with special relativity very well. See here and here!

Thanks for reply.
According to the experiment I have mentioned(unfortunately it was published in Chinese), the charged object and detector moved at the speed of 1m/s, I don't think it's necessory to take the effect of relativity into account.

If a detector shows different results in these two situation(bounded and separated ), it means the detector detects the effect of relativity at such low speed, I don't think it would be real.
 
mattt said:
In fact it is special relativity (the fact the Maxwell Equations are invariant under Lorentz Transformations) what explains those experimental results. :-)

Thanks.
But moving electric charge produce current and current produce magnetic field, it doesn't have to get this answer through Maxwell Equations, does it? :)
 
Steven2007 said:
Hi DaleSpam,

The reference is published in Chinese, I have tried to find the English version but failed. The link is here
<<unacceptable link deleted>>

It has some discription in English:

"
The Experiments Which is Contradictory of the Special Theory of Relativity

Zhu Yong Qiang

(Department of Physics, Fudan University, Shanghai, 20433) Hao Ji

(Shanghai East electromagnetic wave’s research institute, shanghai, 202150)
Abstract: The paper introduce the successful two experiments in noearch’s inertia system: one is the experiment of used the smashed electro magnetic wave to determine the self-velosity in any vehide on the earth, another is the experiment of the regerence somebody following up the motion of charged body can determine the week magnetic by the motion of charged body.

Key Word: the special theory of relativity, the SEW (smashed electro magnetic wave) , reference somebody following up the motion of charged body.
"

There is nothing contradictory to SR. They detected a force applied to the charged particle. There is no way to say it was an electric or a magnetic force. As I said, the measurement doesn't come with a label "magnetic field". They need to relearn SR.

Steven2007 said:
Thanks for reply.
According to the experiment I have mentioned(unfortunately it was published in Chinese), the charged object and detector moved at the speed of 1m/s, I don't think it's necessory to take the effect of relativity into account.

If a detector shows different results in these two situation(bounded and separated ), it means the detector detects the effect of relativity at such low speed, I don't think it would be real.
Doesn't matter. The ## c\to \infty ## limit of the transformations applies here which again explains the experiment.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Shyan said:
There is nothing contradictory to SR. They detected a force applied to the charged particle. There is no way to say it was an electric or a magnetic force. As I said, the measurement doesn't come with a label "magnetic field". They need to relearn SR.Doesn't matter. The ## c\to \infty ## limit of the transformations applies here which again explains the experiment.

No they didn't detect a force applied to the charged particle, they detected a voltage on a solinoid produced by a changing magnetic field(when accelerating and deaccelerating the charged object), so it must be magnetic field
 
  • #10
Steven2007 said:
The reference is published in Chinese, I have tried to find the English version but failed. The link is here
<<link deleted>>

It has some discription in English:
I am sorry, but this reference does not meet PF's minimum quality standard, which is frankly a very low standard to begin with. This reference is simply not nearly the kind of evidence that would be required to cast even a slightest doubt on SR given the wealth of high quality reproducible data that is available:
http://www.edu-observatory.org/physics-faq/Relativity/SR/experiments.html

The advice that you have received from the other respondents correctly addresses the physics of your question, but we cannot discuss this further here in the context of an unacceptable-quality reference which is claiming a violation of SR.
 
Last edited:

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