Crazy things Creationists have said

[BobG]

good post, Astronuc--that's a better way than what I said in my Einstein's 'religion' post (I still think Einstein had to have some type 'religion' to use 'God' so relevantly in that dice statement and maybe other statements?--maybe he had 'religion' earlier in his life and was still embedded to some degree)---

It falls into an ideology/spirituality, but not the idea that most think of 'spirituality' (of the spirit world)--more of the 'spirit' to be open minded about almost, if not all, that is presented (including the knowledge of 'religion'). If someone isn't open minded to all knowledge/areas (but still discerning using judgement and reason), the logical deduction is that that person is closed minded.

There are some things studied in the 'sciences' that have always 'crossed over' into the religion area (or vice-versa)---like all the 'psychic' stuff.

It's impossible for the two not to cross over into each other's area. Instead of 'pyschic stuff', the issue of whether the universe is deterministic or probabilistic is a better example.

If all interactions in nature always follow the same law and there's only one way for the interactions to turn out, then, if one knew the conditions that existed at the Big Bang, you could predict every single thing that would occur in the universe (theoretically, at least, since you'd never have enough information). A person's life would be determined completely by fate. Free will would just be an illusion created by not having all information.

If interactions are probabilistic and can't be predicted exactly no matter much information you might theoretically obtain, then the choices a person makes do have an impact on their own lives and the future of the entire universe. Free will would exist, along with its responsibilities.

 

[Moridin]

good post, Astronuc--that's a better way than what I said in my Einstein's 'religion' post (I still think Einstein had to have some type 'religion' to use 'God' so relevantly in that dice statement and maybe other statements?--maybe he had 'religion' earlier in his life and was still embedded to some degree)---

If I hit myself on the thumb with a hammer and exclaim 'my god that hurts', does that mean that I am religious? For a living refutation, Stephen Hawking, a self-proclaimed non-theist has use the term many times in his books.

There is a difference between being open minded and downright gullible. Being open minded means assessing each new piece of evidence objectively, and trying to see the wider picture. This mean accepting possibility, but evaluating probability. It does not mean believe everything. It does not mean to assert absolute truth in the absence of evidence.

There are some things studied in the 'sciences' that have always 'crossed over' into the religion area (or vice-versa)---like all the 'psychic' stuff.

I'd like to take that ball and run with it in a somewhat different direction. Science can study religions, their natural origin (if they have one) and it can study and see if the attempts by self-proclaimed psychics works better than chance. Although I would not go so far as to claim that I am a proponent of NOMA.

 

[rewebster]

My ideas of (the) science(s) and (all) religion(s) is that in the history of man the two were (almost) overlapping Bell shaped curves. Depending on 'where on earth' and 'where in time', the Bell shaped curves (science one, religion the other) are becoming 'less' overlapping (set theory comes into play,too).

This 'bothers' some 'religious' people/leaders as they 'feel' (and through history, also), they are losing power/control. It's sad to think about, but if a government/'some religious group' wants to be more powerful, they'll chop off as much of the 'science' Bell curve as they can (e.g.- holy roman empire, Nazi's, Taliban, Al queda, Inquisition (e.g.-galileo), and a couple of years ago, on a smaller way, Bush and the global warming).

 

[Evo]

good post, Astronuc--that's a better way than what I said in my Einstein's 'religion' post (I still think Einstein had to have some type 'religion' to use 'God' so relevantly in that dice statement and maybe other statements?--maybe he had 'religion' earlier in his life and was still embedded to some degree)---

Sorry, but Einstein said it sarcastically. I don't have the exact context, but this Times article should help put it in proper perspective for you.

Einstein was convinced that the cosmos is an orderly, continuous unity: gravity and electro-magnetism must, therefore, have a common source. He was in a minority, for Planck's famed Quantum Theory, which Einstein himself did so much to develop, and which many modern scientists accept, suggests that the physical universe is made up of small particles (quanta) that are governed not by some orderly causality but by chance.

But Einstein persisted: "I cannot believe that God plays dice with the cosmos." He set himself to find a new synthesis, which he called the Unified Field Theory. He wanted to unify the field of gravitation with the field of electromagnetism, and thus resolve every cosmic motion into a single set of laws. On three occasions Einstein felt sure he was on the point of grasping the "final truth." But he had to admit last year that he had "not yet found a practical way to confront the theory with experimental evidence," the crucial test for any theory.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,866292-4,00.html

The correct quote is “I cannot believe that God plays dice with the cosmos.”

Albert Einstein on quantum mechanics, published in the London Observer, April 5, 1964; also quoted as "God does not play dice with the world." in Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, New York: World Publishing Co., 1971, p. 19.

Another Einstein letter -

“The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously.”

Albert Einstein, letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981.

 

[rewebster]

If I hit myself on the thumb with a hammer and exclaim 'my godthat hurts', does that mean that I am religious?

To me, I would think, it would depend on who your 'god' was that you were referring to?

There is a difference between being open minded and downright gullible.

why did you change the 'opposites' from 'open minded' and 'closed minded' to 'open minded' and 'downright gullible'?

 

[Astronuc]

. . . . they are losing power/control

I think that is the key issue - the use (or misuse) of religion by one or more to exert control over others, as well as the annoyance of having someone trying to impose their belief or otherwise irrational ideas on oneself.

 

[rewebster]

Sorry, but Einstein said it sarcastically. I don't have the exact context, but this Times article should help put it in proper perspective for you.



http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,866292-4,00.html

The correct quote is “I cannot believe that God plays dice with the cosmos.”

Albert Einstein on quantum mechanics, published in the London Observer, April 5, 1964; also quoted as "God does not play dice with the world." in Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, New York: World Publishing Co., 1971, p. 19.

Another Einstein letter -

I get the sarcasm level of the statement (I really do)--but then using "I" ('I cannot believe...')--it even makes it more 'personal'. I just find it all kind of amusing that he made the statement and denial part of it as being contested. I also get the 'relate it to the general populous' concept. Maybe it was a 'muttered' thought that escaped through his lips----

--------------------------------------------

I have to go again for a little while---but, I really enjoyed this Sunday's morning's gathering and services---

 

[zoobyshoe]

If I hit myself on the thumb with a hammer and exclaim 'my god that hurts', does that mean that I am religious?

A woman I know here told me that one of her ex boyfriends, well known for his strongly held atheistic views, would invariably cry out "Oh God! Oh God!..." upon climaxing.

Hilarious, but it means nothing, of course. It's a phrase people learn to use in extreme moments.

Had Einstein said "Nature does not play dice..." should we conclude he believed in "Mother Nature", in any literal sense? Of course not.

 

[zoobyshoe]

good post, Astronuc--that's a better way than what I said in my Einstein's 'religion' post (I still think Einstein had to have some type 'religion' to use 'God' so relevantly in that dice statement and maybe other statements?--maybe he had 'religion' earlier in his life and was still embedded to some degree)---

It falls into an ideology/spirituality, but not the idea that most think of 'spirituality' (of the spirit world)--more of the 'spirit' to be open minded about almost, if not all, that is presented (including the knowledge of 'religion'). If someone isn't open minded to all knowledge/areas (but still discerning using judgement and reason), the logical deduction is that that person is closed minded.

There are some things studied in the 'sciences' that have always 'crossed over' into the religion area (or vice-versa)---like all the 'psychic' stuff.

I'm not understanding the reason for all the internal quotation marks. Are you trying to indicate italics?

 

[rewebster]

I'm not understanding the reason for all the internal quotation marks. Are you trying to indicate italics?

"Use–mention distinction
Main article: Use–mention distinction
Either quotes or italic type can emphasize that an instance of a word refers to the word itself rather than its associated concept.

Cheese is derived from milk.
“Cheese” is derived from a word in Old English.
Cheese has calcium, protein, and phosphorus.
Cheese has three e’s.
A three-way distinction is occasionally made between normal use of a word (no quotes), referencing the concept behind the word (single quotes), and the word itself (double quotes):

When discussing ‘use’, use “use”."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark

 

[zoobyshoe]

"Use–mention distinction
Main article: Use–mention distinction
Either quotes or italic type can emphasize that an instance of a word refers to the word itself rather than its associated concept.

Cheese is derived from milk.
“Cheese” is derived from a word in Old English.
Cheese has calcium, protein, and phosphorus.
Cheese has three e’s.
A three-way distinction is occasionally made between normal use of a word (no quotes), referencing the concept behind the word (single quotes), and the word itself (double quotes):

When discussing ‘use’, use “use”."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark

Thanks. I had never run into that before. Now I know.

 

[rewebster]

Thanks. I had never run into that before. Now I know.

'know' problem

 

[Kurdt]

Since its come up in this thread I'll ask the question here. Why are so many seemingly obsessed with the notion that the universe has to have meaning? I've honestly never been able to understand why that is so important to people. When they talk about it I just can't get anywhere near the same wavelength they're on and it frustrates me that I can't at least 'empathise' or understand to some extent.

I know that's slightly off topic but if someone will indulge me.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Since its come up in this thread I'll ask the question here. Why are so many seemingly obsessed with the notion that the universe has to have meaning? I've honestly never been able to understand why that is so important to people. When they talk about it I just can't get anywhere near the same wavelength they're on and it frustrates me that I can't at least 'empathise' or understand to some extent.

I know that's slightly off topic but if someone will indulge me.

I think it's pretty simple: if the universe has meaning then each of our lives has meaning. The thought your life might be meaningless is, quite obviously, depressing. It's a basic psychological issue.

 

[Kurdt]

I suppose I can't understand why anybody would think their life was meaningless in that case. Its up to them to give it meaning and that is within everyones power.

Thanks zooby.

 

[Cyrus]

I think it's pretty simple: if the universe has meaning then each of our lives has meaning. The thought your life might be meaningless is, quite obviously, depressing. It's a basic psychological issue.

I don't see why its depressing. More or less, everyones life is meaningless. In the end were all going to die anyways. Its a fact of life, people need to learn to get over this.

 

[Evo]

I think it's pretty simple: if the universe has meaning then each of our lives has meaning. The thought your life might be meaningless is, quite obviously, depressing. It's a basic psychological issue.

I'm with Kurdt, I cannot understand why the universe has to have meaning. It just is. It has nothing to do with me. If the universe has to have meaning in order for their lives to have meaning, then I have a news bulletin for them, their lives have no meaning. Meaning comes from within.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I suppose I can't understand why anybody would think their life was meaningless in that case. Its up to them to give it meaning and that is within everyones power.

People's identities, their self image, is often pretty fragile, especially in adolesence. People form and join cliques mostly to define themselves. To the extent meaning might be already built into existence it would cut way down on that kind of stress and angst.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't see why its depressing. More or less, everyones life is meaningless. In the end were all going to die anyways. Its a fact of life, people need to learn to get over this.

Well, in your case it's true: your life is completely meaningless.

(See what I mean?)

 

[Kurdt]

Would be a lot less fun though. May as well be born a worker bee or ant.

 

[Cyrus]

Well, in your case it's true: your life is completely meaningless.

(See what I mean?)

I already know my life is meaningless. Even if I were Albert Einstein, my life would be meaningless. At the end of the day, we are going to all die in our planet and what your name is or what you did won't mean squat.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Would be a lot less fun though. May as well be born a worker bee or ant.

Most people don't want to be ants, but they do want a certain degree of structure overseen by authority, in part to protect them from others and in part to dole out approbation. This arises naturally from peoples relationships with their parents and siblings, I think, and is extended to schoolmates and teachers, then to employers and co-workers. Blanketing all of this, but usually much in the background, is their relationship to fellow citizens and government.

I think that when there's some kind of deep rooted problem in someone's life with any of these small scale structures it's common to wish for a universal meaning to solve it all.

 

[Evo]

If you have to be handed all the explanations, told that you're here as the result of some divine plan, then life really has no meaning, you're just a pawn.

I prefer to think each life starts as a blank slate and you make your own meaning. And maybe your life will never have any meaning, maybe you are that fly speck in the scheme of things, it's completely up to you. If people find that scary, that's really sad.

 

[Astronuc]

Meaning comes from within.

That's the key! Some people can't deal with this concept, hence the anxiety.

Or one can adopt Cyrus's view.

I already know my life is meaningless. . . . . At the end of the day, we are going to all die in our planet and what your name is or what you did won't mean squat.

Don't worry. Be Happy.

On the other hand, for those who fret about such things - the answer is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything

 

[Cyrus]

Eventually our sun will explode. There won't even be a planet left for aliens to come and see that we were even here. We will be blown up into stardust.

 

[Astronuc]

Eventually our sun will explode. There won't even be a planet left for aliens to come and see that we were even here. We will be blown up into stardust.

I try not to let that spoil my weekend.


Or the Vogons will obliterate the Earth to make way for a hyperspatial by-pass. It says so in the HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy, so it must be true.

Just in case, I have a reservation at Milliways.

 

[Pythagorean]

If you have to be handed all the explanations, told that you're here as the result of some divine plan, then life really has no meaning, you're just a pawn.

I think more realistically, you're a pawn if you're a tradesman. You're bidding is to the state and you hold no real power (compared to the politicians). It's about money. "Feed the plebs, win their hearts!"

I prefer to think each life starts as a blank slate and you make your own meaning. And maybe your life will never have any meaning, maybe you are that fly speck in the scheme of things, it's completely up to you. If people find that scary, that's really sad.

I agree with you that meaning comes from within, though. But I don't think it remains within. Ideas traverse space through light and sound. Other people adapt them, the become shared and glorified.

The Christian God is a very prominent idea (false as it may be) that has a lot of power and makes a lot of things happen still today.

When I get together with a group of friends and work on a project (that has been done before) we're deriving meaning from work and thoughts done long ago.

But yes, meaning is a human construct. This does not immediately make it false or worthless, though.

 

[BobG]

I think it's pretty simple: if the universe has meaning then each of our lives has meaning. The thought your life might be meaningless is, quite obviously, depressing. It's a basic psychological issue.

That was the key to those great Monster.com commercials.

When I grow up...

Personally, I want to grow up to have a brown nose. Growing up to be underappreciated would be nearly as good, though.

Or, as in the unreleased version of this commercial:
When I grow up ... I think I'll just buy a gun.

I have to admit, using terms nobody understands is pretty tempting, but convincing myself I'm not the same geek I was in high school is probably beyond my capabilities, even in my wildest dreams.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I already know my life is meaningless. Even if I were Albert Einstein, my life would be meaningless. At the end of the day, we are going to all die in our planet and what your name is or what you did won't mean squat.

"Meaning" is most often about people's present relationship with peers and authorities. Aparently insolvable problems in this arena are more likely to cause someone to feel their life is meaningless than anything else. Like I said before, that concern gets displaced onto finding some over-riding meaning in the universe to cancel out the importance of their real world problems and keep them going.

 

[zoobyshoe]

That was the key to those great Monster.com commercials.

When I grow up...

Personally, I want to grow up to have a brown nose. Growing up to be underappreciated would be nearly as good, though.

I have dial up so your link has no meaning.

 

[BobG]

I have dial up so your link has no meaning.

I have to admit, I find that kind of depressing.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have to admit, I find that kind of depressing.

Cheer up. It could be part of a cosmic plan whose details will be revealed later.

 

[BobG]

I have dial up so your link has no meaning.

I have to admit, I find that kind of depressing.

I found the one thing that will cheer me up.

http://www.itc.virginia.edu/pubs/docs/RespComp/videos/when-I-go-to-UVA-sm.wmv

Better yet, you need wideband to view this.

As they say, those who laugh at the misfortune of others understand the meaning of life.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I found the one thing that will cheer me up.

http://www.itc.virginia.edu/pubs/docs/RespComp/videos/when-I-go-to-UVA-sm.wmv

Better yet, you need wideband to view this.

As they say, those who laugh at the misfortune of others understand the meaning of life.

Again: Dialup - no meaning.

 

[rewebster]

As they say, those who laugh at the misfortune of others understand the meaning of life.

Hmmm--I wonder if that's why I get a smile when I think of the last twenty years or so of Einstein's life.---hmmmm




---------------------------------------------------

I should explain that a little:


I just wondered how many times he came down from his office area with a bruised forehead from beating his head against the wall trying to get gravity into that equation so that it would all 'work'.

 

[Aether]

Eventually our sun will explode. There won't even be a planet left for aliens to come and see that we were even here. We will be blown up into stardust.

Our present sun is not going to explode and blow us all up into stardust...although our previous sun did do that already. What our present sun is going to do is to greatly expand until the Earth's orbit is enclosed within it. But then, the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with the Milky Way galaxy...which is going to be cool.

 

[rewebster]

Our present sun is not going to explode and blow us all up into stardust...although our previous sun did do that already. What our present sun is going to do is to greatly expand until the Earth's orbit is enclosed within it.

can you guarantee me that 100%?

 

[Aether]

can you guarantee me that 100%?

100% money back guarantee for rewebster, you've got it.

 

[rewebster]

OK--GREAT!


I'll put a firecracker in a time capsule----won't THEY be surprised when it goes off!

 

[Evo]

Don't trust him rewebster, he has absolutely no intention of making good on that guarantee.

 

[rewebster]

Don't trust him rewebster, he has absolutely no intention of making good on that guarantee.

oh--OH

(it sounds like you know him a lot better than I do--



----what's his dirty little secrets?)

 

[Aether]

Oh, I will too pay out if necessary, but that's at least five billion years from now...and you will have to remind me about this, because I'm not going to come looking for you like "Honest Abe" returning a penny or anything.

 

[rewebster]

Aether---This message is to the 'Aether' of the future (reading it in 5 billion years if you made it)---send me back a tachyon message to let me and the 'present' Aether know whether or not he is correct.


(please verify that YOU are the Aether of the future, too)

 

[Aether]

You shouldn't have done that...

 

[Evo]

Aether---This message is to the 'Aether' of the future (reading it in 5 billion years if you made it)---send me back a tachyon message to let me and the 'present' Aether know whether or not he is correct.


(please verify that YOU are the Aether of the future, too)

Oh, good one! Did you remember to request the secret password so we know it's really him?

 

[jim mcnamara]

Hmm.

Some interesting assumptions.

1. Duality. Fundamentalist Christians view the entire universe as part of
religion; nothing is separable from it. Everyday existence, science, and
all things are part of it and subservient to its dictates. Not separable
ever. Scientists dualize. Religious beliefs in one pile, Science in
another pile.

2. Motivation. Do you give 10% of your salary every week to an
organization whose only goal is to promote its views which, by the way, are
absolute? Absolute = black and white, no gray.

Assuming money is a resource, and the one with the most resources longterm
will eventually win:
Who is going to win- Fundmentalism or Science?

As an extra added bonus:
Guess who has already figured this out?

3. Being right. Everybody on all sides of the n-dimensional fence thinks
s/he is right. In this case, is it possible for anyone to be right? And
what if some folks know that their belief system also says that it must
be adopted by everyone?

4. Failure. In the West, religion lost ground when plague overran Europe
several times and upset the socio-economic applecart. Religion failed to
make the hurts go away. Science gained favor because it made some hurts go
away and the old order was not strong enough to oppress it. Science also
helped to spawn new hurts - like overpopulation. Now, religion is trying
to make a comeback. It is trying to turn the tables on Science by
exploiting the nastiness of 2007... IMO. To see what I mean try:
http://cogp.blogspot.com/

 

[BobG]

Hmm.

Some interesting assumptions.

1. Duality. Fundamentalist Christians view the entire universe as part of
religion; nothing is separable from it. Everyday existence, science, and
all things are part of it and subservient to its dictates. Not separable
ever. Scientists dualize. Religious beliefs in one pile, Science in
another pile.

2. Motivation. Do you give 10% of your salary every week to an
organization whose only goal is to promote its views which, by the way, are
absolute? Absolute = black and white, no gray.

Assuming money is a resource, and the one with the most resources longterm
will eventually win:
Who is going to win- Fundmentalism or Science?

As an extra added bonus:
Guess who has already figured this out?

3. Being right. Everybody on all sides of the n-dimensional fence thinks
s/he is right. In this case, is it possible for anyone to be right? And
what if some folks know that their belief system also says that it must
be adopted by everyone?

4. Failure. In the West, religion lost ground when plague overran Europe
several times and upset the socio-economic applecart. Religion failed to
make the hurts go away. Science gained favor because it made some hurts go
away and the old order was not strong enough to oppress it. Science also
helped to spawn new hurts - like overpopulation. Now, religion is trying
to make a comeback. It is trying to turn the tables on Science by
exploiting the nastiness of 2007... IMO. To see what I mean try:
http://cogp.blogspot.com/

Now, that's funny. I especially liked the carjacking:

Two weeks ago, while driving on 3rd Mainland Bridge, the car in front of me got attacked by armed robbers. I sharply locked my doors put my gear into reverse and did a u-turn. It was the Angel Gabriel himself that cleared the one-way traffic behind me that day, God knows I cannot remember how I escaped.

As the poor driver was screaming for help, i shouted to him before winding my glass up
"HEAVEN HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES!" and sped away. I would have liked to add the chapter and verse of the bible for that quote, but alas, the automatic glass of the mercedes was too fast for me.

I also have to admire Mofe Naira. In spite of her husband being jailed on false money laundering charges, she has persevered and obtained even greater wealth.

 

[rewebster]

You shouldn't have done that...

To the Aether of the future:

sorry, the firecracker was just a small test



(I'll add Pete Rose and Barry Bonds rookie cards in there 'protected' from the firecracker when it goes off--just to make up for it)


(and the password is ?)

 

[Aether]

(I'll add Pete Rose and Barry Bonds rookie cards in there 'protected' from the firecracker when it goes off--just to make up for it)

I was present at the game in Atlanta where Pete Rose's famously-long hitting streak came to an end, so this baseball card trick might help you. However, even if my future self does decide to send you a tachyon message, how do you expect to receive it?

 

[rewebster]

You (your future self) should be a lot smarter after 5 billion years of reading the PF---I'm sure you'll find a way