Creationist bill passed by Louisiana House of Representatives

[Stevedye56]

It can be calculated from Old and New Testament genealogies. Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam. Naturally, this data is inconsistent with every dating method that exists.

No it can't. It can be calculated that the world is going to end tomorrow if you want. I could calculate that the Earth is 15 minutes old if I wanted to. There is no direct statement on the age of the earth. I would like to see your calculation.On a side note to the admins I haven't figured out the multi quote thing yet so I am sorry for cluttering this thread.

Otherwise where do you stop? If kids can answer 'it's God's will' to every school science question, can they write that in their degree, when they are in medical school, when they are signing off on a new aircraft design?

Certainly not, that does not demonstrate understanding of a topic it just shows an un-willingness to learn. If I wanted right now I could just write that I do not believe in Biology because the Bible says that it is incorrect. However, I do not because that would be obscene. Just because I do not believe in the theory of evolution does not mean that I will avoid it at all costs. I think that it is ridiculous to say that people would refute something because "the bible doesn't say so". If the person is taking that approach they clearly are looking for a way out. I love physics I think every aspect is interesting. However, I do not believe that it has the origin and or evolution of life.

 

[Kurdt]

Creationism is not science and has no place in a science class. If you want a creation story to be told it has to be done in a religious education class. End of story. What is the problem here?

 

[Stevedye56]

maybe because christian creationism is based on the bible, which also states that the Earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days,

It can be calculated from Old and New Testament genealogies.


Ah ..So, it is just a complete lie that the bible has anything to say about the age of the universe or this particular planet in it.

The bible is to truth of origin ; as Harry Potter is to the truth about magic.

I would much rather Harry Potter taught in schools than a bible. Even though they are both fictional.

So you think a book that has been transcribed hundreds and hundreds of times with errors only in punctuation is a made up fairy tale..

 

[lisab]

So you think a book that has been transcribed hundreds and hundreds of times with errors only in punctuation is a made up fairy tale..

Again, a non-sequitur. The number of times a book has been transcribed has nothing to do wtih the veracity of the first copy.

In any case I'm not aware of evidence that the bible has been transcribed so many times with no major errors or revisions.

 

[Vid]

I can't say I'm surprised. I was taught both evolution and creationism in 10th grade biology by the great Louisiana public school system. We also learned about the possibility of humans coming from space. All three of these were considered possible "theories" in this class. I blame the heavy, heavy catholic influence in Louisiana especially the further south you go. (I lived 90 miles south west of New Orleans.)

 

[Borek]

If the humanity is so smart then why can we not figure out cancer? Why have we not found cure for illness. Why can't we live forever?

Compare what we know today with what we have known 100 years ago. Ask your questions in 100 years from now. Just because we don't some answers yet, doesn't mean we will not know them in the future.

It also doesn't mean we will know them, but that's another story.

And judging Earth age from Bible is not that hard. There are long lists of genealogy in Genesis, like

• Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old, he became the father of Arphaxad.
• And after he became the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived 500 years and had other sons and daughters.
• When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah.
• And after he became the father of Shelah, Arphaxad lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.
• When Shelah had lived 30 years, he became the father of Eber.
• And after he became the father of Eber, Shelah lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.
• When Eber had lived 34 years, he became the father of Peleg.
• And after he became the father of Peleg, Eber lived 430 years and had other sons and daughters.
• When Peleg had lived 30 years, he became the father of Reu.
• And after he became the father of Reu, Peleg lived 209 years and had other sons and daughters.
• When Reu had lived 32 years, he became the father of Serug.
• And after he became the father of Serug, Reu lived 207 years and had other sons and daughters.
• When Serug had lived 30 years, he became the father of Nahor.
• And after he became the father of Nahor, Serug lived 200 years and had other sons and daughters.
• When Nahor had lived 29 years, he became the father of Terah.
• And after he became the father of Terah, Nahor lived 119 years and had other sons and daughters.
• After Terah had lived 70 years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran.

that tells who lived how long and so on. It is not a rocket science to add these numbers to trace time between Christ and Adam and Eve. That's not very accurate, but it gives around 6000 years.

 

[Moridin]

Stevedye56, the genealogies are right there as well as the age of the people. It is all in the bible.

 

[Borek]

It is all in the bible.

Trick is, it takes an atheist like me to read it

 

[Kurdt]

This thread looks like its skating on thin ice. I suggest people only comment on the original article and not how to calculate the age of the Earth from the bible lest it be locked by the mentors.

 

[Gokul43201]

So you think a book that has been transcribed hundreds and hundreds of times with errors only in punctuation is a made up fairy tale..

Strawman.

 

[seycyrus]

Stevedye56, the genealogies are right there as well as the age of the people. It is all in the bible.

*SIGH*

The bible does not ever claim to be a second by second, minute by minute relation of events that have happened.

It is easy to bypass whis by simply stating that not all "facts" are meant to be taken literally, but are meant to convey a different message. Such as, in this case, a lineage.

 

[Vid]

It's kind of hard to just write off several billion years of lost time.

 

[seycyrus]

And to respond to Borek's request.

In my opinion, creationism should not be taught in school.

Perhaps the bible might be examined in a class on comparative religions, or maybe a literature class.

That's it.

 

[Stevedye56]

Wow this is ridiculous. I am clearly just getting shot down on what I know is right so I am done here.

 

[Stevedye56]

Strawman.

Might want to re-read these:

Guidelines on Langauge and Attitude:
Foul or hostile language will not be tolerated on Physics Forums. This includes profanity, obscenity, or obvious indecent language; direct personal attacks or insults; snide remarks or phrases that appear to be an attempt to "put down" another member; and other indirect attacks on a member's character or motives.

 

[Alfi]

Originally Posted by Stevedye56 View Post

So you think a book that has been transcribed hundreds and hundreds of times with errors only in punctuation is a made up fairy tale..
YES.

And I believe it should stay out of public schools.
I also believe the members of government have better things to do than waist time on bills like this one.

oh btw - 'strawman' is a type of argument, not a put-down on the poster.

 

[NeoDevin]

Wow this is ridiculous. I am clearly just getting shot down on what I know is right so I am done here.

You make a claim

No it can't [be calculated from Old and New Testament genealogies].

And are shown very clearly how to calculate it, thus being proven wrong. Then you claim to know you are right? I'm sorry but I don't follow your reasoning.

 

[seycyrus]

It's kind of hard to just write off several billion years of lost time.

Huh? It's easy, and makes me ask you to perhaps open a book or two by intellectual christian thinkers. Unless you think that this is a new question that has never EVER been examined?

I believe there is a passage in the bible, where Kermit says something like "A thousand years to you is but a moment to me."

 

[Moonbear]

I just want to point out that while the assumption here is that this opens the door for creationism to be taught in the classroom, the wording of the bill is simply allowing additional materials beyond the textbook to be used. This could also have a beneficial side. A lot of textbooks inadequately teach the subject of evolution, which is why so many people with no science education beyond high school are easily misled into believing other nonsense like Creationism. This would give a good teacher some flexibility when a student asks about some of these misconceptions to bring in further sources on evolution to explain how much more there is to the theory and to clarify points of common confusion and misunderstanding so students are better armed to not be so gullible about the Creationist's arguments.

I agree it also allows for exploitation by Creationists, but as long as there is a review process in place in the case of complaints, let's hope sane parents will complain and demand review of the material if their kid starts to get taught Creationism in school.

 

[NeoDevin]

Strawman.

Might want to re-read these:

Guidelines on Langauge and Attitude:
Foul or hostile language will not be tolerated on Physics Forums. This includes profanity, obscenity, or obvious indecent language; direct personal attacks or insults; snide remarks or phrases that appear to be an attempt to "put down" another member; and other indirect attacks on a member's character or motives.

Strawman is not a put down, he is characterizing the quality of your argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[seycyrus]

You make a claim
And are shown very clearly how to calculate it, thus being proven wrong. Then you claim to know you are right? I'm sorry but I don't follow your reasoning.

Wait a sec. How long did Moses pause between when he (supposedly) parted the Red Sea and when he started to cross? How long did it take him? My bible doesn't talk about that. Do you have the teacher's version or something?

 

[NeoDevin]

Wait a sec. How long did Moses pause between when he (supposedly) parted the Red Sea and when he started to cross? How long did it take him? My bible doesn't talk about that. Do you have the teacher's version or something?

Why are you putting up strawmen?

 

[seycyrus]

Why are you putting up strawmen?

It is not a strawmen. It is exposing a strawman!

Because the bible does NOT claim to record every moment of time. Since it does not record all moments, the claim that bible can be used to accurately date the universe is incorrect.

This viewpoint has been accepted by christians for some time, and is a coherent.

To claim that judeo-christian-islamic belief is flawed due to an argument that they do not support is creating a strawman.

Actually, I don't know what the majority of muslims believe, so I'll back out of that part.

 

[Cyrus]

How could you consider it falsified- because you don't believe it? The Big Bang is falsifiable you obviously haven't looked very deeply into it. If the Big Bang DID happen how do you get from there to life. If the humanity is so smart then why can we not figure out cancer? Why have we not found cure for illness. Why can't we live forever?

Obviously, YOU don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[Cyrus]

Wow this is ridiculous. I am clearly just getting shot down on what I know is right so I am done here.

You're clearly wrong and instead of admitting it, you deem yourself right. Thats the definition of a fool.

In all honestly, don't bother coming to this form and asking people for help if you don't have the integrity to learn and understand science and what it means to be a scientist.

Im not saying anthing about being religious. But do NOT waltz in here and think you can say, 'no its not a true', 'no, its not a valid theory', only because you hear what you want to hear, and not what is true.

 

[seycyrus]

Obviously, YOU don't know what the hell you're talking about.

How are you guys usig the term "falsifiable"?

A scientific theory HAS to be falsifiable to be scientific. Einstein's theory is falsifiable, doesn't make it wrong.

 

[NeoDevin]

Because the bible does NOT claim to record every moment of time. Since it does not record all moments, the claim that bible can be used to accurately date the universe is incorrect.

You are correct that the bible does not claim to record every moment of time. But we don't need to know every moment in time to calculate the age. If the ~6000 yr date is innacurate, then one of the ages listed in the geneologies in the bible must be innaccurate.

To illustrate, I could give you a list of major events which happened in my lifetime, and the amount of time which passed between each. Using this information, without having a second by second recording of my life, you can make a reasonable approximation to my age. A similar thing can be done with the geneologies in the bible.

That is why your claim that the bible does not record all moments is a strawman.

 

[Vid]

Exactly, one does not need to know how long it took Moses to part the red sea if the bible say Moses was 120. The whole is the sum of its parts.

 

[Moridin]

*SIGH*

The bible does not ever claim to be a second by second, minute by minute relation of events that have happened.

It is easy to bypass whis by simply stating that not all "facts" are meant to be taken literally, but are meant to convey a different message. Such as, in this case, a lineage.

How do you know what to take literally and what to interpret as mere symbolism? Is Christ dying on the cross only symbolic? If the genealogies are not literal, but symbolic, then the notion that Christ is from the house of David is not true. That pretty much screws up much of new testament doctrine.

 

[seycyrus]

You are correct that the bible does not claim to record every moment of time. But we don't need to know every moment in time to calculate the age. If the ~6000 yr date is innacurate, then one of the ages listed in the geneologies in the bible must be innaccurate.

The data set is incomplete, as you have admitted. There is nothing to suggest tha tthe event depicted are nothing, but snapshots in time, with perhaps a given exposure, but not a known interval. Perhaps T0 is defined, but there is no criteria given as to the time interval between frames.

Btw, some of the ages listed in the genaologies are undoubtedly incorrect.

To illustrate, I could give you a list of major events which happened in my lifetime, and the amount of time which passed between each. Using this information, without having a second by second recording of my life, you can make a reasonable approximation to my age. A similar thing can be done with the geneologies in the bible.

You are positing a complete data set. You know the time "between".

That is why your claim that the bible does not record all moments is a strawman.

This all boils down to the fact that not everyone who is religous believes those "facts" are literal.

The bible is not meant to be a chronological record. You can claim that the part about the age is incorrect, but you cannot claim that the whole thing is necessarily incorrect due to that one fact.

It is much more logical to just say that you don't believe in Kermit, than to say you don't believe in Kermit because Kermit's book has some incorrect items.

My Nuclear physics book had some of it's historical details wrong. At least according to my Nuclear physics proffessor. Does this mean that one of them is not a reputable source of information about nuclear physics? Surely not.