Cube root of unity with a huge exponent

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the evaluation of the expression $y=x/(1+x)$, where $x=\omega^{2009^{2009^{\cdots \text{upto 2009 times}}}}$ and $\omega$ is a complex root of unity. Participants explore the implications of a large exponent in the context of modular arithmetic, particularly focusing on the forms of the exponent modulo 3.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that $2009 \equiv 2 \pmod{3}$ and explore how this affects the exponentiation of $2009$ in the context of modular arithmetic.
  • Others argue that the exponent can be expressed in terms of its parity, specifically that $2009^l$ is odd for any integer $l$, leading to conclusions about its form modulo 2.
  • There is a discussion on applying Fermat's Little Theorem and Euler's Theorem to simplify the calculations, with some participants questioning the necessity of Euler's totient function in this context.
  • Participants clarify the implications of the cyclic property of exponents and how it relates to the problem at hand.
  • Some participants express confusion about the application of these theorems and seek clarification on the steps involved in the reasoning.
  • A later reply highlights that the title of the thread indicates that $\omega$ is a cube root of unity, which is relevant to the overall discussion.
  • Finally, there is a conclusion that $x$ can be expressed as $\omega^{3k-1}$, leading to a proposed answer for $y$ based on this form.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the application of modular arithmetic and the implications of the exponent's form, but there is some disagreement on the necessity and clarity of using Euler's totient function versus Fermat's Little Theorem. The discussion remains somewhat unresolved regarding the best approach to simplify the problem.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the specific root of unity represented by $\omega$, as the problem statement does not clarify this, although it is inferred from the title. Additionally, there are unresolved questions about the clarity of the steps taken in applying theorems related to modular arithmetic.

Saitama
Messages
4,244
Reaction score
93
Problem:
Let $y=x/(1+x)$, where
$$\Large x=\omega^{2009^{2009^{\cdots \text{upto 2009 times}}}}$$
and $\omega$ is a complex root of 1. Then $y$ is

A)$\omega$

B)$-\omega$

C)$\omega^2$

D)$-\omega^2$

Attempt:
I somehow need to show that the huge exponent is of the form $3k$, $3k+1$ or $3k-1$ but I don't see how to do so. :confused:

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Pranav said:
Problem:
Let $y=x/(1+x)$, where
$$\Large x=\omega^{2009^{2009^{\cdots \text{upto 2009 times}}}}$$
and $\omega$ is a complex root of 1. Then $y$ is

A)$\omega$

B)$-\omega$

C)$\omega^2$

D)$-\omega^2$

Attempt:
I somehow need to show that the huge exponent is of the form $3k$, $3k+1$ or $3k-1$ but I don't see how to do so. :confused:

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

This is really number theory. First observe that $2009 \equiv 2 \pmod{3}$. Therefore, for any integer $k$:
$$2009^k \equiv 2^k \pmod{3}$$
Furthermore, let $k = 2009^l$ for some integer $l$. Then $k$ is clearly odd, since $2009$ is odd. So:
$$k \equiv 2009^l \equiv 1^l \equiv 1 \pmod{2}$$
Through Euler's Theorem since $\varphi(3) = 2$ (actually the FLT suffices since $3$ is prime) we have:
$$2009^{(2009^l)} \equiv 2009^k \equiv 2^k \equiv 2^1 \equiv 2 \pmod{3}$$
And so we conclude that the exponent is of the form $3k + 2$, or, equivalently, $3k - 1$.
 
Last edited:
Pranav said:
Problem:
Let $y=x/(1+x)$, where
$$\Large x=\omega^{2009^{2009^{\cdots \text{upto 2009 times}}}}$$
and $\omega$ is a complex root of 1. Then $y$ is

A)$\omega$

B)$-\omega$

C)$\omega^2$

D)$-\omega^2$

Attempt:
I somehow need to show that the huge exponent is of the form $3k$, $3k+1$ or $3k-1$ but I don't see how to do so. :confused:

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

Hi Pranav! ;)

It looks like a case where Fermat's little theorem can be applied repeatedly.
Can you clarify which root of 1 the symbol $\omega$ is?
 
Hi ILS and Bacterius! :)

Bacterius said:
Through Euler's Theorem since $\varphi(3) = 2$ (actually the FLT suffices since $3$ is prime) we have:
$$2009^{(2009^l)} \equiv 2009^k \equiv 2^k \equiv 2^1 \equiv 2 \pmod{3}$$

I am lost on this step. How did you apply FLT here? :confused:

I like Serena said:
Can you clarify which root of 1 the symbol $\omega$ is?
The problem statement mentions nothing about that but I think it isn't necessary to solve the problem.
 
Pranav said:
I am lost on this step. How did you apply FLT here? :confused:
I am applying the cyclic property of exponents modulo $\varphi(n)$, which follows immediately from Euler's Theorem (or FLT for prime moduli). In other words, for $\gcd(a, n) = 1$. the following holds:
$$x \equiv y \pmod{\varphi(n)} ~ ~ ~ \implies ~ ~ ~ a^x \equiv a^y \pmod{n}$$
In this case, we found that for any integer $l$:
$$2009^l \equiv 1 \pmod{2}$$
And we also know that $2009$ is coprime to $3$, and so we obtain:
$$2009^{2009^l} \equiv 2009^1 \pmod{3}$$
Simplify using $2009 \equiv 2 \pmod{3}$ and the result follows.
 
Bacterius said:
I am applying the cyclic property of exponents modulo $\varphi(n)$, which follows immediately from Euler's Theorem (or FLT for prime moduli). In other words, for $\gcd(a, n) = 1$. the following holds:
$$x \equiv y \pmod{\varphi(n)} ~ ~ ~ \implies ~ ~ ~ a^x \equiv a^y \pmod{n}$$
In this case, we found that for any integer $l$:
$$2009^l \equiv 1 \pmod{2}$$
And we also know that $2009$ is coprime to $3$, and so we obtain:
$$2009^{2009^l} \equiv 2009^1 \pmod{3}$$
Simplify using $2009 \equiv 2 \pmod{3}$ and the result follows.

Thanks Bacterius! :)

I have never seen that property before.

But can we proceed from FLT directly without involving the use of Euler's totient function? I have never used it before in problem solving.

From FLT,
$$a^{p-1}\equiv 1\pmod p$$
Here $p=3$, what should be $a$? :confused:
 
Pranav said:
Thanks Bacterius! :)

I have never seen that property before.

But can we proceed from FLT directly without involving the use of Euler's totient function? I have never used it before in problem solving.

From FLT,
$$a^{p-1}\equiv 1\pmod p$$
Here $p=3$, what should be $a$? :confused:

Sure, you can do it this way. You simply note that $2009^l$ is going to be odd for any $l$, and so it can be written as $m(p - 1) + 1$ for $p = 3$ (so $p - 1 = 2$). Therefore:
$$a^{2009^l} \equiv a^{m(p - 1) + 1} \equiv a^1 \equiv a \pmod{p}$$
Then you put $a = 2009$ as per your problem, and simplify the base modulo $3$, and you're done. Does this make it clearer?
 
Last edited:
Bacterius said:
Sure, you can do it this way. You simply note that $2009^l$ is going to be odd for any $l$, and so it can be written as $2(p - 1) + 1$ for $p = 3$ (so $p - 1 = 2$). Therefore:
$$a^{2009^l} \equiv a^{2(p - 1) + 1} \equiv a^1 \equiv a \pmod{p}$$
Then you put $a = 2009$ as per your problem, and simplify the base modulo $3$, and you're done. Does this make it clearer?

I think I see it now but I do not see the reason for writing $2009^l$ in an awkward way i.e $2(p-1)+1$. :confused:

Can you please check if the following is correct?

Since $2009^l$ is odd, I write it as $2k+1$, hence,

$$2009^{2009^l}\equiv (2009)^{2k+1} \equiv (2009^k)^2\cdot 2009 \pmod 3$$

From FLT, I can write $(2009^k)^{(3-1)}\equiv 1\pmod 3$ and also, $2009\equiv 2\pmod 3$. Hence,

$$(2009^k)^2\cdot 2009 \equiv 2 \pmod 3$$

EDIT: Woops, that's actually what you did, its just that I did not see it before until I wrote it down myself, thanks Bacterius for all the help! :)
 
Pranav said:
The problem statement mentions nothing about that but I think it isn't necessary to solve the problem.

Ah, I just noticed that this information is hidden in the title of your thread. (Bandit)
It's the cube root of unity.
So $\omega^3 = 1$.

And I see that is what Bacterius and you have been using all along. (Wasntme)
 
  • #10
Anyway, so now we have that:
$$x= \omega^{3k-1}$$
So which answer should it be? (Wondering)
 
  • #11
I like Serena said:
Anyway, so now we have that:
$$x= \omega^{3k-1}$$
So which answer should it be? (Wondering)

$\omega^{3k-1}$ is same as $\omega^2$. Hence, $y=\omega^2/(1+\omega^2)=\omega^2/(-\omega)=-\omega$ which is the B option. :)
 

Similar threads

Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K