Curved spacetime and imaginary coordinate

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of using imaginary coordinates in the context of curved spacetime, as referenced in the book "Gravitation" by Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler. Participants explore the implications and practicality of such an approach, particularly in relation to the metric and the nature of four-vectors.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references a statement from "Gravitation" regarding the lack of a method to effectively implement imaginary coordinates in curved spacetime, expressing confusion over this assertion.
  • Another participant discusses the norm of a four-vector in flat spacetime and critiques the practice of using imaginary components to hide the negative sign in the metric, arguing that this obscures the underlying metric structure necessary for general relativity.
  • A different participant suggests that introducing imaginary components into the metric would complicate the understanding of curvature and other related concepts, indicating that the approach is fundamentally flawed.
  • One participant concludes that while assigning imaginary values is not fundamentally impossible, it is impractical and ultimately unhelpful in the context of curved spacetime.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a general consensus that while the use of imaginary coordinates is not outright impossible, it is impractical and leads to complications. However, there is no explicit agreement on the implications of this approach or its potential utility.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations and challenges associated with using imaginary coordinates in curved spacetime, particularly regarding the metric and the interpretation of four-vectors. There is an acknowledgment of the need for careful consideration of definitions and substitutions in this context.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying general relativity, particularly in relation to the mathematical treatment of spacetime and the implications of using different coordinate systems.

Orbb
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In Misner, Thorne, Wheeler: "Gravitation" it is stated on that "no one has discovered a way to make an imaginary coordinate work in the general curved spacetime manifold" (p.51). Can anyone elaborate on this? Right now, I don't get why it wouldn't work and nothing more is said in the book.
 
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Either way, the "norm" of a four vector [itex](ct,x,y,z)[/itex] in flat spacetime is [itex]-ct^2 +x^2 +y^2 +z^2[/itex]. Some textbooks (I believe Marion-Thornton does this) try to "hide" the negative sign by instead saying that the dot product of four-vectors is as in Euclidean space, but the time component is imaginary. This of course is mathematically equivalent, but hides the very idea of a metric which we will need later in GR.

Also, in flat spacetime we become complacent with the idea that a vector can be a 'displacement vector', instead of event coordinates being separate from the vector coordinates in the tangent space. Once in curved space this becomes obvious, and pushing the imaginary number onto the coordinates of the tangent space means even less then. Furthermore, the metric would start to have imaginary components, and the curvature and other things would need to be redone just to fix this kludge.

So imaginary coordinates are not useful at all (they don't "work").
I don't think they are claiming you literally cannot make changes in definitions to force such a substitution on the notation, but one would have to be acutely aware of this substitution to prevent problems ... to the point where you'd most likely be forced to just work it out normally and do the substitution afterwards (making that notation pointess).
 
JustinLevy said:
the metric would start to have imaginary components
I think that's it. The whole point of imaginary time is to get rid of the negative sign from any of the metric components. Before considering curvature you need cross-terms in the metric, which corresponds to putting [itex]\sqrt{-1}[/itex] in some of the metric components if you use imaginary time. The cure is worse than the disease.
 
Okay, so assigning imaginary values to a dimension in curved spacetime is not prinicpally impossible, in the sense that it would lead to inconsistencies, but it's rather that it's just highly impracticable and therefore of no use. Hope I got that right; thank you!
 

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