Debunking Interstellar Travel: Separating Fact from Fiction

[Drakkith]

We seem to be wandering away from the main thread topic and more towards current events.

I've got my eye on the thread, but if you think it gets out of hand just report one of the posts so it can be brought up to the other mentors.

 

[1oldman2]

I've got my eye on the thread, but if you think it gets out of hand just report one of the posts so it can be brought up to the other mentors.

Just trying to nudge things back on track, thanks.

 

[Ssnow]

For me it is fantasy we need a lot of technologies before to think about the interstellar travel. I think we must to start to visit our solar system for example a travel on Mars ( in a summer day ) ... but also for this I believe we need a lot of time (I cannot realize for an ''interstellar travel'')

 

[ogg]

I've always thought it would be fun to write a sci-fi (short) story about a race of beings who invent force fields which revolutionizes their technology. The zinger would be that these "force fields" are what we know as "matter". (or perhaps now that I think about it, perhaps solids would be more plausible then at least I could have gaseous or liquid beings...) This thread's arguments seems to break down three ways, why the 4th is being avoided, I don't know. The three are: 1. Physics will evolve but it will not mutate, so intestellar travel is extremely implausible 2. Known Physics has changed in the past, therefore we should expect profound changes to the Laws of Physics in the future (aka magical thinking) 3. We should consider AI or genetically space adapted beings and their ability to travel between the stars. The 4th category is (imho) so what if it takes one of our ships 10,000 (or 1,000,000) years to get to its destination? Is there any reason (that we know about) we can't do that?

 

[mfb]

Known physics has changed in the past, but the previous laws have always stayed good approximations.
Newtonian gravity is not correct, but a really good approximation if you want to build a house. If you want an accurate GPS system, you better add some small correction terms.
Solid-state physics today is based on quantum mechanics, but you don't have to consider quantum mechanics to build a house, because you can use the approximations of classical physics there. If you want to study objects on the nanometer scale, you better use quantum mechanics.

There are certainly amazing new things yet to be discovered, especially on the microscopic scales, but things like conservation of momentum are unlikely to go away - or only with extremely tiny deviations.

The 4th category is (imho) so what if it takes one of our ships 10,000 (or 1,000,000) years to get to its destination? Is there any reason (that we know about) we can't do that?

That concept is widely used as idea for interstellar travel.

 

[AgentCachat]

True, but the humans on board will have turned to Jello.

Hmm, you must have misread some numbers. Very high acceleration is needed to turn people into jello. A dv/dt of 0.05 c is too small for long trips.

 

[AgentCachat]

Humans will not be satisfied to sit here on earth, its not in our nature. We will find a way to the planets, then the stars. Its only a matter of will.. We may not be able to traverse the galaxy at warp speed, but getting to the nearest stars is possible, however difficult.

 

[rootone]

Humans will not be satisfied to sit here on earth, its not in our nature. We will find a way to the planets, then the stars. Its only a matter of will.. We may not be able to traverse the galaxy at warp speed, but getting to the nearest stars is possible, however difficult.

I agree, but it won't happen unless there is a collective wish to do it. Communism is out of fashion at the moment.

 

[AgentCachat]

I agree, but it won't happen unless there is a collective wish to do it. Communism is out of fashion at the moment.

I think it can happen if enough people want it to. It could be a private venture. The capitalist U.S. beat the communist U.S.S.R. to the moon. I mean, Lithuania has its own satellite now. Israel launches its own spy satellites, South Korea has launched a satellite. There is no sign of space exploration and utilization slowing down.

 

[rootone]

A private venture is possible, but I think not many people with serious financial means would invest in an interstellar exploration project with an unknown result.
They got rich anyway by investing in things of which the outcome would probably be profitable.

 

[AgentCachat]

A private venture is possible, but I think not many people with serious financial means would invest in an interstellar exploration project with an unknown result.
They got rich anyway by investing in things of which the outcome would probably be profitable.

I was thinking of people so rich they could afford to risk much of their capital on projects that interest them. What more can Bill Gates do with 75 billion dollars? He gives away a few million to charity each year, big deal, pocket change to him.

 

[anorlunda]

I was thinking of people so rich they could afford to risk much of their capital on projects that interest them. What more can Bill Gates do with 75 billion dollars? He gives away a few million to charity each year, big deal, pocket change to him.

Can I interest you in investing your pocket change in a project whose result will not be known for 10000 years? If yes, maybe I can start a kickstart. I'll soon be as rich as Gates.

 

[AgentCachat]

Can I interest you in investing your pocket change in a project whose result will not be known for 10000 years? If yes, maybe I can start a kickstart. I'll soon be as rich as Gates.

LOL. My pocket change wouldn't get you very far. I was not implying that rich folks could finance interstellar travel with pocket change. But with $ 75 billion, you could afford to "only" have say $25 billion and still live comfortably. Carlos Slim could afford $10 billion, etc, And there must be lots of people who could afford millions. Add many billions of money stolen from taxpayers.

 

[anorlunda]

My pocket change wouldn't get you very far. I was not implying that rich folks could finance interstellar travel with pocket change. But with $ 75 billion, you could afford to "only" have say $25 billion and still live comfortably. Carlos Slim could afford $10 billion, etc, And there must be lots of people who could afford millions. Add many billions of money stolen from taxpayers.

You completely missed my point. I was trying to compare a 10000 year project to selling the Brooklyn Bridge.

 

[AgentCachat]

You completely missed my point. I was trying to compare a 10000 year project to selling the Brooklyn Bridge.

Oh I got it. But you don't invest in projects like this with the ROI being a concern.

We've about exhausted this topic. Think I'll go on to how to make politicians honest, or another easy subject.

 

[phinds]

Hmm, you must have misread some numbers. Very high acceleration is needed to turn people into jello. A dv/dt of 0.05 c is too small for long trips.

You miss the point. See post #73

 

[ebos]

Hmm, you must have misread some numbers. Very high acceleration is needed to turn people into jello. A dv/dt of 0.05 c is too small for long trips.

The inactivity of muscles will turn the humans to Jello. Humans are too lazy to exercise long and hard on a daily basis to maintain their musculature..

 

[ebos]

I find it questionable to have "universal love", whatever that is. People sometimes behave aggressive and even go to war not because they are inherently evil. They do it because it is an *evolutionary necessity*. "Fight or flight". Both reactions make sense. If you see a rockfall upon you, it makes sense to flee. But someone who always runs from any danger, loses. If you run away, you lose everything you left behind - stockpiled food, shelter, territory, children.

We don't need to stop fighting. We need to stop fighting *when it can be avoided with diplomacy, economic pressure, etc*. When we do fight, we need to do it cleverly, not letting our natural animalistic emotions turn the conflict into slaughter.

As to "learning how to feed everyone", I don't see starving people in Western countries. If anything, *obesity* is a problem here, not starvation. "Making sure everyone has enough instead of just 1%"? What is "enough"? Having food, shelter, and health care is enough? I am not in richest 1%, and I have all of that, and much more. Looks like these two problems are solved.

Evolution is not just a product of physical growth.

 

[phinds]

The inactivity of muscles will turn the humans to Jello. Humans are too lazy to exercise long and hard on a daily basis to maintain their musculature..

I know it's tedious on these long threads but it helps if you read the thread. Then you won't post something that has already been posted (and was just referenced in the post directly above yours)

 

[ebos]

I find it questionable to have "universal love", whatever that is. People sometimes behave aggressive and even go to war not because they are inherently evil. They do it because it is an *evolutionary necessity*. "Fight or flight". Both reactions make sense. If you see a rockfall upon you, it makes sense to flee. But someone who always runs from any danger, loses. If you run away, you lose everything you left behind - stockpiled food, shelter, territory, children.

We don't need to stop fighting. We need to stop fighting *when it can be avoided with diplomacy, economic pressure, etc*. When we do fight, we need to do it cleverly, not letting our natural animalistic emotions turn the conflict into slaughter.

As to "learning how to feed everyone", I don't see starving people in Western countries. If anything, *obesity* is a problem here, not starvation. "Making sure everyone has enough instead of just 1%"? What is "enough"? Having food, shelter, and health care is enough? I am not in richest 1%, and I have all of that, and much more. Looks like these two problems are solved.

Saddens me that many still don't understand. As I said, it hasn't been long since we left the safety of the trees.

 

[ebos]

Look at the US and the Russians in cold war. Did they sent that into space? Manned spaceflight originally was a side product of intercontinental nuclear weapons and only intended to demonstrate technological superiority. But once in space the super powers started to cooperate there (e.g. with the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project). Things on Earth and in Space will always be different.
Changing the nature of humans is problematic from an ethical point of view - even when done for the best. Preventing humans from "jumping to hatred or war at the least provocation" would require general mental modifications. There is no doubt that humans will be modified both physically and mentally in the future - especially if we colonise space. But that will happen for a minority only and it will result in additional problems (e.g. conflicts between different post-human species).

Solving our problems on Earth first is a popular idea but out of touch with reality. There will always be problems.

Reality does NOT have to equal History. History is rooted in ideology; history in logic.

 

[ebos]

I know it's tedious on these long threads but it helps if you read the thread. Then you won't post something that has already been posted (and was just referenced in the post directly above yours)

First let me tell you how thrilled I am to receive a kind word from the infamous 'Phinds' (NO sarcasm intended - OK, a teeny little bit). Secondly, you are correct and I apologize. I will definitely pay more attention the next time. Occasionally my emotions overrule my logic.

 

[ebos]

I may have used the wrong verbage when I suggested we postpone our space programs. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, I believe we do need to re-shuffle our priorities. Developing space technology from war technology is a pretty drastic method of motivation. But "Star Wars" under Ray-guns and sending real-estate agents to Mars all on the public dime is ridiculous. There is no "Us vs. Them" because we created "Them". And camouflaging the space program to suit the needs and paranoia of the military-industrial complex is just so much Hooey for lack of a better word. However, I digress. We are losing the thread of this convo. Oh, I'm from Canada in case anyone hasn't guessed by now and I've hidden the odd Vietnam vet in my past. Nuff said? Let's get back to Physics!

 

[phinds]

First let me tell you how thrilled I am to receive a kind word from the infamous 'Phinds' (NO sarcasm intended - OK, a teeny little bit). Secondly, you are correct and I apologize. I will definitely pay more attention the next time. Occasionally my emotions overrule my logic.

Well, actually I looked back and what we have is me referencing my post just before yours on this page which points to one of my earlier posts which in fact was answering one of YOUR earlier posts which ... this is just too convoluted for me Anyway, I find it more clear in a thread to reference a previous thread than to restate what was in that thread, but the bottom line is that you got the facts right before I did brought it up and I was (earlier) just supporting what you said in the first place and now more recently I was chiding your for saying it again because I didn't remember that it was you who said it in the first place. I hope all that is clear to you because I'm not sure I know what the hell I'm talking about at this point ...

 

[Drakkith]

The inactivity of muscles will turn the humans to Jello. Humans are too lazy to exercise long and hard on a daily basis to maintain their musculature..

Not true. The amount of musculature has no bearing on whether or not a person will be "turned to jello". That all depends on the strength of the connective tissue in their body, which may or may not be affected by space travel.

Evolution is not just a product of physical growth.

I don't know what you mean by this in this context. Could you elaborate?

Saddens me that many still don't understand. As I said, it hasn't been long since we left the safety of the trees.

I guess if a few million years isn't very long. And I'm sorry that someone disagreeing with you saddens you, but please do not make snide comments.

However, I believe we do need to re-shuffle our priorities. Developing space technology from war technology is a pretty drastic method of motivation.

While space technology was originally developed for war purposes, and continues to be used for those purposes, commercial applications make up a substantial portion of the global space industry and that portion continues to increase. According tohttp://www.spacefoundation.org/sites/default/files/downloads/The_Space_Report_2015_Overview_TOC_Exhibits.pdf, commercial activities make up 76% ($250.8 billion) of the global "space economy" and grew by 9.7% in 2014, compared to a government investment of the remaining 24% ( $79.2 billion) which had a growth of 7.3%.

But "Star Wars" under Ray-guns and sending real-estate agents to Mars all on the public dime is ridiculous. There is no "Us vs. Them" because we created "Them". And camouflaging the space program to suit the needs and paranoia of the military-industrial complex is just so much Hooey for lack of a better word.

Again, I don't know what you're trying to get at.

 

[ebos]

It's quite obvious by now what happens to the human body after even short periods of zero gravity. To build a spinning ship creating centrifugal force like in the movies would be prohibitively massive and would overburden an already overburdened fuel supply. Ray-guns and his clones and real estate agents (and developers) and their clones going into space would only un-mask our true intentions. It would just be another repeat of what happened in N.A. in 1492. Go Capitalism or should I say Colonialism! Rah, rah, rah! A few million years, since the trees, doesn't really signify a very large step in evolutionary values as we are all still after the same thing - what I (and my descendants) can get at whatever cost to you. It's better to wait and see what other species actually evolves before going off as representatives of this planet because we're definitely out of the running. We blew it. We're not much better than a virus my friend. Four lousy billion years ago, we WERE viruses. Hope my point was defining enough for you. Oh, and what I consider the truth, which I am entitled to, was not being snide except perhaps in your opinion. Just like I would never consider your opinion snide. Objectivity is a myth. And, yes, this thread has gone off topic.

 

[Drakkith]

It's quite obvious by now what happens to the human body after even short periods of zero gravity.

Then you should have no problem finding a reference for your earlier claim that space travel would cause the human body to be more susceptible to being "turned into jello" by acceleration. I'd like to see that reference please.

To build a spinning ship creating centrifugal force like in the movies would be prohibitively massive and would overburden an already overburdened fuel supply.

I see no reason why a spinning ship would inherently be much more massive than a comparable non-spinning ship. Do you have something that supports this claim?

Ray-guns and his clones and real estate agents (and developers) and their clones going into space would only un-mask our true intentions. It would just be another repeat of what happened in N.A. in 1492. Go Capitalism or should I say Colonialism! Rah, rah, rah!

I have no idea what you're even getting at and I ask that you turn down the sarcasm a bit please.

A few million years, since the trees, doesn't really signify a very large step in evolutionary values as we are all still after the same thing - what I (and my descendants) can get at whatever cost to you.

I don't find this to be an accurate assessment of what evolution does. Altruism and cooperation between individual organisms, populations of organisms, and even between different species is an integral part of evolution.

It's better to wait and see what other species actually evolves before going off as representatives of this planet because we're definitely out of the running. We blew it. We're not much better than a virus my friend. Four lousy billion years ago, we WERE viruses.

I'm not sure how you can already judge us to have already blown it when we have no other species to make a meaningful comparison to.

Hope my point was defining enough for you.

Not really, no.

 

[mfb]

To build a spinning ship creating centrifugal force like in the movies would be prohibitively massive and would overburden an already overburdened fuel supply.

Supporting a ring with a diameter of 100 meters with today's commercial tethers would need about 0.15% of the mass (breaking length of ~300 km). Completely negligible. Some of the strength can come from other structural elements which reduces the fraction of mass needed purely for structural integrity even more.
This is a science forum, if you make claims like this they should be backed by numbers.

It's quite obvious by now what happens to the human body after even short periods of zero gravity.

"Turning into jello" is not part of it.

We're not much better than a virus my friend.

Who defines "better" by which metric?

 

[Possum_Tom]

Perhaps one day it may be possible if and when we develop better propulsion systems. but for now, yes interstellar travel is impossible

 

[nikkkom]

Problems with humans living in zero-g should be addressed well before we are to try the first interstellar expedition - living in zero-g is a problem for Solar System's colonization too.

Building spinning habitats for many millions or even billions of people living all over Solar System would be very expensive, therefore I expect lots of effort will be spent on making that unnecessary. Genetic tweaks? Anti-zero-g pills? Maybe by 25th century "humans" will be cyborgized to the level when they are brains in small tanks, and the rest of the body is mechanical? I don't know. I propose that we assume that by the time we start building the first interstellar ship, zero-g is a solved problem.