Defining a Family of Observers: Textbook Reference Needed

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter WannabeNewton
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition of a family of observers in the context of general relativity, specifically focusing on the rigorous mathematical and physical interpretations of this concept as presented in various textbooks. Participants seek clarity on the nature of world lines, orthonormal frames, and measuring apparatuses associated with observers.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant requests a rigorous definition of a family of observers, questioning whether it refers to a congruence of unit time or can include intersecting world lines.
  • Another participant cites Wald's definition, indicating that a family of observers is represented by a unit timelike vector field v^a.
  • A participant expresses gratitude for the reference and seeks clarification on the relationship between measuring apparatuses and the orientation of the orthonormal frame field.
  • One participant defines a measuring apparatus as an orthonormal frame consisting of three measuring rods and a clock, suggesting this is a standard characterization.
  • A later reply questions why Wald emphasizes the three meter sticks in his discussion of apparatus orientation, proposing that the time-like basis vector's orientation is inherently fixed along the observer's world line.
  • Another participant provides a specific page reference from Wald's book that discusses the relevant concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the definitions and concepts related to families of observers and measuring apparatuses, indicating that multiple views remain without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions and implications of orthonormal frames and measuring apparatuses, as well as the specific conditions under which the family of observers is defined.

WannabeNewton
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Messages
5,850
Reaction score
553
Does anyone have a textbook reference for the rigorous definition of a family of observers? Wald uses the term a lot but never actually defines it i.e. is it a congruence of unit time - like world lines defined on a proper open subset of the space - time or is it a congruence defined over the entire space - time or does it even have to be a congruence at all (i.e. can two worldlines in the family intersect)? To this entire family we give an orthonormal frame field that is supposed to characterize how the measuring apparatuses of each observer is oriented but what is the rigorous link between the mathematical and physical definition here (i.e. what constitutes the measuring apparatuses - are they just a physical way of characterizing the orientation of the orthonormal frame field?). I believe MTW actually gives proper definitions of these things but the book is huge I got lost trying to find anything pertinent so I'm hoping someone else possibly knows the relevant sections or has other texts to look at. Thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Ooooh I must have missed it; thanks a ton robphy! Also can you explain the part about measuring apparatuses to me? Is the orientation of the measuring apparatus carried by an observer in the family at a point in his world line just a physical way of characterizing the orientation of the orthonormal triad making up the spatial part of the basis for the tangent space at that point in the world line of said observer? Thanks a lot for the de Felice link that one looks like it will be quite helpful!
 
A measuring apparatus is an orthonormal frame: a set of 3 measuring rods 1 meter long, oriented at right angles to each other, combined with a clock that ticks once every (1 m/c) seconds.
 
Ben Niehoff said:
A measuring apparatus is an orthonormal frame: a set of 3 measuring rods 1 meter long, oriented at right angles to each other, combined with a clock that ticks once every (1 m/c) seconds.
Ok that makes sense but is there a reason why Wald only refers to the 3 meter sticks when talking about the orientation of the apparatus? He attributes to every point on the worldline of the observer an orthonormal basis [itex](e_{\alpha })^{a}[/itex] and says [itex](e_{0 })^{a}[/itex] is the unit tangent vector to the world line which corresponds to your statement about the ticking clock and then says the [itex](e_{i })^{a}[/itex]'s characterize the orientation of the apparatus held by the observer, which it would seem corresponds to the orientation of the 3 meter sticks. Is he just excluding the time - like basis vector from the statement about orientation of the apparatus because the orientation of this is already fixed along the world line of the observer (future - pointing)? Thanks ben!

EDIT: The relevant page I got this from in the book was 342 if you are interested. Cheers!
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • · Replies 78 ·
3
Replies
78
Views
8K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
4K
  • · Replies 81 ·
3
Replies
81
Views
5K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
5K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
923