Is Proper Time Only Perceived by External Observers?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of proper time in the context of relativity, exploring its definition, measurement, and relationship to coordinate time. Participants examine whether proper time is solely perceived by external observers and how it relates to the readings on clocks in different reference frames.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the definition of proper time, questioning whether it is merely the time measured by one's own clock or if it is perceived differently by external observers.
  • Others argue that proper time is an invariant quantity that does not depend on the coordinate system used, emphasizing that the reading on a clock is a fundamental measurement.
  • There is a contention regarding whether the time coordinate at an observer's location is equivalent to their proper time, with some asserting that they are distinct concepts depending on the reference frame.
  • One participant suggests that proper time can be calculated by an observer in a different frame using the definition of simultaneity, while others challenge this notion, insisting that proper time is directly read from one's own clock.
  • Several participants clarify that proper time is a parameterization of an observer's worldline and can be used to assign time coordinates to events, but this does not equate it to the time coordinate itself.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the relationship between proper time and coordinate time. Multiple competing views remain regarding the definitions and implications of proper time in different frames of reference.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the importance of distinguishing between proper time and coordinate time, noting that the latter may not advance at the same rate as proper time in general relativity. There are also discussions about the implications of simultaneity and the curvature of worldlines, which remain unresolved.

  • #31
Dale said:
Excellent, thanks. I guess I just got in the habit of always getting an affine parameter such that I have completely forgotten when it is necessary.
Of course, working with affine parameters is of great advantage. That's why it's better to use the "square form" of the Lagrangian for the geodesics, i.e.,
$$L=-\frac{1}{2} g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{x}^{\nu},$$
where the dot again means the derivative wrt. an arbitrary parameter ##\lambda##, but thanks to Noether's theorem, since the Lagrangian is quadratic in the ##\dot{x}## and since it doesn't explicitly depend on ##\lambda## the "Hamilton-like" conserved quantity ##H=L## is conserved along the solutions of the equations of motion (which are just the geodesic equation). This means that for the solution ##\lambda## is automatically an affine parameter along the trajectories of the particle.

Another advantage is that this works without trouble for both light-like as well as time-like geodesics. In the latter case you simply choose the conserved quantity ##g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{x}^{\nu}=c^2##. Then you have ##\lambda=\tau##, with ##\tau## the proper time along the geodesic. For the light-like case you have to set ##g_{\mu \nu} =g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{x}^{\nu}=0##, and of course there's no proper time, but ##\lambda## is still some arbitrary affine parameter. The physics of course doesn't depend on the choice of this parameter.
 
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  • #32
vanhees71 said:
Of course, working with affine parameters is of great advantage.

Not so much in a B-level thread.
 
  • #33
Particularly in a B-level thread, because it simplifies the task to solve the equations of motion ;-)).
 
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