Derivation of non-dimensional Navier Stoke equation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the non-dimensional Navier-Stokes equation, focusing on the treatment of velocity vectors and the implications of dimensional analysis in fluid dynamics. Participants explore the definitions and roles of various terms in the equation, as well as the conditions under which certain terms may be considered negligible.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a derivation involving the velocity vector field and questions the validity of their results compared to established literature.
  • Another participant argues that the reference speed ##v## should be a constant rather than a variable speed of the fluid, suggesting a misunderstanding in the derivation.
  • There is a discussion about the definition of the unit velocity vector and its implications for dimensional analysis, with some participants noting that ##v## can be any fixed non-zero speed.
  • A participant shares the non-dimensional Navier-Stokes equation and expresses uncertainty about determining which terms are negligible, despite knowing the physical parameters involved.
  • Concerns are raised about the clarity of notation, particularly regarding the use of the dot product symbol in the context of vector operations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the treatment of the velocity vector and the appropriate definition of reference speed. There is no consensus on the correct approach to the derivation or the implications of the non-dimensional terms in the Navier-Stokes equation.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding of the non-dimensional vectors and the conditions under which terms in the Navier-Stokes equation can be considered negligible. There is an acknowledgment of the complexity involved in applying dimensional analysis to fluid dynamics.

ussername
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Take the first three terms of Navier Stoke equation:
$$\rho \cdot \left ( v_{x}\cdot \frac{\partial \vec{v}}{\partial x} + v_{y}\cdot \frac{\partial \vec{v}}{\partial y} + v_{z}\cdot \frac{\partial \vec{v}}{\partial z}\right )$$

Define the length ##v## of the velocity vector field:
$$\vec{v}=v\cdot \vec{v}^{0}$$
where ##\vec{v}^{0}## is the unit vector field with same direction as ##\vec{v}##. Thus it is:$$v_{x}=v\cdot v_{x}^{0}$$$$v_{y}=v\cdot v_{y}^{0}$$$$v_{z}=v\cdot v_{z}^{0}$$

Now both terms ##v\cdot \vec{v}^{0}## can change with ##x## coordinate, so their derivation is:
$$\frac{\partial (v\cdot \vec{v}^{0})}{\partial x}=\vec{v}^{0}\cdot \frac{\partial v}{\partial x}+v\cdot \frac{\partial \vec{v}^{0}}{\partial x}$$

When I substitute these derivations into the NS equation (1. equation), I get something like this:
$$\rho \cdot\vec{v}^{0}\cdot v\cdot \left ( \vec{v}^{0}\cdot \left ( \frac{\partial v}{\partial x} , \frac{\partial v}{\partial y} , \frac{\partial v}{\partial z}\right ) \right )+\rho \cdot v^{2}\left ( \vec{v}^{0}\cdot \left ( \frac{\partial \vec{v}^{0}}{\partial x} , \frac{\partial \vec{v}^{0}}{\partial y} , \frac{\partial \vec{v}^{0}}{\partial z}\right ) \right )$$

But according to the literature it should be just the second term:
$$\rho \cdot v^{2}\left ( \vec{v}^{0}\cdot \left ( \frac{\partial \vec{v}^{0}}{\partial x} , \frac{\partial \vec{v}^{0}}{\partial y} , \frac{\partial \vec{v}^{0}}{\partial z}\right ) \right )=\rho \cdot v^{2}\cdot \left ( \vec{v}^{0}\cdot \left ( \mathrm{div} \vec{v}^{0} \right ) \right )$$

What is wrong about this derivation?
 
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I don't think you are understanding it right. If the point is to get rid of the dimensions then ##v## should be some constant reference speed, not the speed of the fluid at each point.

Edit: I also suggest you stop using ##\cdot## when you don't mean scalar product, it makes your post difficult to read.
 
Orodruin said:
If the point is to get rid of the dimensions then ##v## should be some constant reference speed, not the speed of the fluid at each point.
So what is the definition of the unit velocity vector?

Edit: If ##v## is the average constant speed, than the length of ##\vec{v}^0## is not generally unity.
 
Last edited:
ussername said:
So what is the definition of the unit velocity vector?

Edit: If ##v## is the average constant speed, than the length of ##\vec{v}^0## is not generally unity.
Indeed. It is just a dimensionless velocity. Note that ##v## can be any fixed non-zero speed. You would typically fix it to some speed that appears in your problem, such as the speed of the flow at infinity.
 
The non-dimensional Navier Stokes equation is:
$$\frac{L\cdot f}{v}\frac{\partial \vec{v}^*}{\partial \vec{\tau}^*}+ v_x^*\frac{\partial \vec{v}^*}{\partial x^*}+ v_y^*\frac{\partial \vec{v}^*}{\partial y^*}+v_z^*\frac{\partial \vec{v}^*}{\partial z^*}=\frac{g\cdot L}{v^2}\vec{g}^*+\frac{p^0}{\rho \cdot v^2} \bigtriangledown^*p^*+\frac{\eta }{L\cdot v\cdot \rho } \bigtriangledown^{*2}\vec{v}^*$$
I understand that by setting physical parameters (##v,\rho,L...##) I can achieve in my scaled flow e.g. identical ratio of friction force to net force as in the original flow.

What I don't understand is how can I determine which terms in this equation are negligible. I know the physical dimensional parameters (##v,\rho,L...##) but I generally don't know the non-dimensional vectors (##v_x^*\frac{\partial \vec{v}^*}{\partial x^*}+ v_y^*\frac{\partial \vec{v}^*}{\partial y^*}+v_z^*\frac{\partial \vec{v}^*}{\partial z^*}##, ##\bigtriangledown^{*2}\vec{v}^*##...).
So how can I know which values are standing behind every term in the equation?
 

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