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Evynct
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Determinism.
Generally speaking how important is determinism in physics?
Generally speaking how important is determinism in physics?
Determinism: how important is determinism in physics?
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In summary, determinism is very important in physics, and there is a lot of debate about whether or not it is possible or desirable to achieve it in all of its various forms.
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BvU
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Hello Evynct, 
Very.
But now we want to know a bit more re your question. What is it about, what do you think, etc.
Very.
But now we want to know a bit more re your question. What is it about, what do you think, etc.
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A. Neumaier
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All our technology depends on physics being reasonably deterministic, enough to be able to predict the behavior of all the equipment we create and use, including computers and the internet.
But the existence of chaos in many deterministic systems implies that many things are unpredictable and hence look nondeterministic to any (human or machine) observer no matter whether Nature is or is not fundamentally deterministic.
But the existence of chaos in many deterministic systems implies that many things are unpredictable and hence look nondeterministic to any (human or machine) observer no matter whether Nature is or is not fundamentally deterministic.
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Evynct
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Thanks for the replies, and welcoming.
I thought before getting into physics formerly I should locate a fundamental starting point. Rather than the status quo.
I believe that starting point is fundamentally determinism. Am I wrong about that?
I know that one of the main problems in quantum physics today is hidden Variable Theory which has a goal of determinism. Without it quantum mechanics is said to be incomplete.
I thought before getting into physics formerly I should locate a fundamental starting point. Rather than the status quo.
I believe that starting point is fundamentally determinism. Am I wrong about that?
I know that one of the main problems in quantum physics today is hidden Variable Theory which has a goal of determinism. Without it quantum mechanics is said to be incomplete.
- #5
Nugatory
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You are combining a bunch of different and only loosely related issues here. In no particular order:
- If you plan on starting anywhere except with the status quo, you're wasting your time. It is impossible to sensibly criticize, let alone improve on, a theory until know what the theory says.
- A. Neumaier's reply above is a pretty good summary of the accepted status of determinism in modern science. If you want to know more about how we arrived here and the strengths and limitations of that worldview, you have more than two centuries of catching up to do: Start with "Laplace's Demon".
- Hidden variable theories are far from being "one of the main problems in quantum physics today", and in any case are only loosely related to determinism; there's no reason why a hidden variable theory has to be deterministic. It is true that Einstein and colleagues wrote a paper on the incompleteness of quantum mechanics 80 years ago, and it is true that a deterministic hidden variable theory would go a long ways towards addressing their criticisms - but subsequent theoretical and experimental developments have shown that a theory of the type they imagined is not possible.
Although there is no substitute for really learning the physics, you may find several books helpful. These are layman-friendly, and not a substitute for the real thing... but they also do not require a fair amount of math background and several months of concentrated effort to get through:
- Giancarlo Ghiardi: Sneaking a look at God's cards
- Louisa Golder: The age of entanglement
- David Lindley: Where does the wierdness go?
- If you plan on starting anywhere except with the status quo, you're wasting your time. It is impossible to sensibly criticize, let alone improve on, a theory until know what the theory says.
- A. Neumaier's reply above is a pretty good summary of the accepted status of determinism in modern science. If you want to know more about how we arrived here and the strengths and limitations of that worldview, you have more than two centuries of catching up to do: Start with "Laplace's Demon".
- Hidden variable theories are far from being "one of the main problems in quantum physics today", and in any case are only loosely related to determinism; there's no reason why a hidden variable theory has to be deterministic. It is true that Einstein and colleagues wrote a paper on the incompleteness of quantum mechanics 80 years ago, and it is true that a deterministic hidden variable theory would go a long ways towards addressing their criticisms - but subsequent theoretical and experimental developments have shown that a theory of the type they imagined is not possible.
Although there is no substitute for really learning the physics, you may find several books helpful. These are layman-friendly, and not a substitute for the real thing... but they also do not require a fair amount of math background and several months of concentrated effort to get through:
- Giancarlo Ghiardi: Sneaking a look at God's cards
- Louisa Golder: The age of entanglement
- David Lindley: Where does the wierdness go?
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Nugatory
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This thread is closed, as further discussion is likely to fall afoul of the Physics Forums rules about speculation and philosophy.
As always, if there is more to say, PM any of the mentors to ask that the thread be reopened so that you can say it.
As always, if there is more to say, PM any of the mentors to ask that the thread be reopened so that you can say it.
FAQ: Determinism: how important is determinism in physics?
What is determinism?
Determinism is the philosophical concept that states that all events, including human actions, are ultimately determined by previous causes or natural laws. In other words, every event has a cause and if we know the initial conditions and the laws that govern the system, we can predict the future with certainty.
How does determinism relate to physics?
In physics, determinism is the idea that the laws of nature are universal and unchanging, and that all phenomena can be explained and predicted by these laws. This means that if we know the initial conditions of a system, we can use the laws of physics to determine the future state of that system with complete certainty.
Is determinism widely accepted in the scientific community?
The concept of determinism has been debated for centuries and there are different interpretations and perspectives within the scientific community. While many scientists believe in the deterministic nature of the universe, others argue that there are certain phenomena, such as quantum mechanics, that introduce an element of randomness and indeterminacy.
How does determinism impact our understanding of free will?
Determinism and free will are often seen as conflicting ideas. If everything is predetermined by natural laws, then it could be argued that we do not have true free will. However, some philosophers and scientists believe that determinism and free will can coexist, with the understanding that our actions are determined by our own choices and decisions within the boundaries of natural laws.
Are there any implications of determinism in our daily lives?
Determinism has implications in many areas of our daily lives, from the way we view and understand the world, to our ideas about moral responsibility and personal agency. Some people may find comfort in the idea that everything is predetermined and that we have no control over our lives, while others may feel that it limits our potential and responsibility for our actions.