Did Van Gogh's Seizure Disorder Lead to His Infamous Ear Cutting Incident?

[zoobyshoe]

Van Gogh and Gauguin were sharing a small room in Arles, France. The evening before the ear cutting incident they were at a Cafe drinking absinthe, a known epileptogenic drink that is now illegal. For no apparent reason Van Gogh picked up his absinthe and threw it at Gauguin. The next day he couldn't remember having done it. Gauguin told him he was going to go elsewhere, which upset Van Gogh. Gauguin went out for a walk...

"Going to his mirror and taking up his razor, van Gogh began to shave the edges of his ruddy beard. Just then, he told the doctor, he heard a disembodied voice commanding him to kill Gauguin. In Rey's (the doctor's) opinion, van Gogh had seized; the voice was a TLE (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy) seizure, coming from inside his brain.
Prompted by the voice, van Gogh went out into the empty street. He approached the public garden, passed between the firs and bouganvillea bushes that marked its entrance, and walked along the garden path, the blade still in his hand.
In a few minutes he reached Gauguin who, hearing footsteps, turned to find his host, fifteen feet behind him, looking crazed and holding up a blade. Van Gogh appeared to be in a trance. Moments later, he swung around and ran home, where he used the blade on himself, slicing off the lower half of his ear, the source of the voice that had told him to kill Gauguin.
To staunch the blood gushing from the wound, van Gogh pressed towel after towel to his head, dropping the soiled ones to the floor. Hours passed. Gauguin did not return; he had decided to spend the night at a hotel.
Around midnight, van Gogh picked up his severed ear, wrapped it in paper, and went out. He walked through the village to a brothel that Gauguin frequented, where he left his ear on the stoop with a note saying it was a "keepsake" for a prostitute who had once posed for him. He returned home, escorted by a neighbor who had been alerted to his strange behaviour, and went to sleep. The next morning, roused by officers summoned by the neighbor, he was taken to the hospital, where he met Felix Rey."

-Seized
Eve LaPlante
1993

She points out earlier in the chapter that this Dr. Rey had happened to be reading aticles on the various manifestations of seizure disorders by the great British Neurologist J. Hughlings Jackson. Before hearing the voice, van Gogh had started to suffer from occasional startling disturbances in his visual field, stomach aches, and mood swings. A couple of months after the incident he had a grand mal seizure that was witnessed by a nurse who was sent to keep him company while he painted.

 

[Monique]

Interesting that you should say this, just a few days ago this some how came up in a discussion.

It was said that Van Gogh was actually poisioned, which led to his irradic behaviour. Where did the poison come from? From the paint! All the organic solvents (not sure which one exactly, I believe they mentioned the compound a few days ago) he was inhaling, combined with the alcoholism caused this compound to accumulate in his body.

Not sure about the correctness of this statement, but it could be true.

 

[zoobyshoe]

He actually started becoming emotionally over-intense in early adulthood. You may know he tried for a long time to be a preacher. The parishoners petitioned to have him removed because he was too intense for them. He didn't even think seriously about art until after this failure as a preacher.

During the next ten years till his suicide, he lived on a near starvation diet, both because he had little money and out of some misguided empathy for the very poor people he liked to paint. When he did get money he was more likely to spend it on paint, coffee, tobacco, and wine, than food.

After the ear cutting incident he tried to commit suicide once by drinking turpentine and eating some of his paint. This may be where your story came from.

 

[Artman]

Originally posted by Monique
Interesting that you should say this, just a few days ago this some how came up in a discussion.

It was said that Van Gogh was actually poisioned, which led to his irradic behaviour. Where did the poison come from? From the paint! All the organic solvents (not sure which one exactly, I believe they mentioned the compound a few days ago) he was inhaling, combined with the alcoholism caused this compound to accumulate in his body.

Not sure about the correctness of this statement, but it could be true.

Lead and other heavy metals were also used in the pigments especially in white paint such as flake white. White lead is very toxic. I believe Cobalt blue has poisonous ingredients and the cadmium colors (not sure if they had those then or not) are supposed to be dangerous. He was also a big user of chrome yellow, which is very toxic.

 

[rick1138]

Exactly, all of the heavy metal pigments are very toxic - in my library somewhere I have a list of pigments vanGogh used - nearly every one contained heavy metals.

 

[rick1138]

I believe Cobalt blue has poisonous ingredients and the cadmium colors (not sure if they had those then or not) are supposed to be dangerous.

Cobalt blue contains cobalt which is aheavy metal and highly toxic. The cadmium colors are highly toxic as well, cadmium causes many of the same problems as lead poisoning, but it is also dangerous as a pulmonary carcinogen. Some of the compounds used in the cadmium paints are also used in pesticides. The cadmiums came into use in the late 18th century, and were widely used in vanGogh's time.

 

[einsteinian77]

It had nothing to do with the paints or alcoholism it had to do Van Gogh being insane. Just shortly after Van Gogh passed away his brother was also put into a mental institution. His brother having almost the same exact symptoms as Van gogh. This proves that it was a hereditary insanity.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
It had nothing to do with the paints

I agree. As I noted above, his personality was quite erratic before he even began to handle paints. It the paints were to blame all the painters of that time would have had the same symptoms.

or alcoholism

Alcohol was actually a thing that contributed to him becoming worse. Alcohol has a worsening effect on both mental illnesses and epilepsy.

it had to do Van Gogh being insane. Just shortly after Van Gogh passed away his brother was also put into a mental institution. His brother having almost the same exact symptoms as Van gogh. This proves that it was a hereditary insanity.

You are ignoring the diagnosis of epilepsy, made by Dr. Rey, and which was confirmed by the eventual generalization into a grand mal seizure that the nurse witnessed. You are also ignoring that on the night before he cut his ear he was drinking absinthe, which is so well known to trigger seizures that it has been outlawed.

His brother, Theo, was psychologically fine untill Vincent committed suicide. His mental breakdown was triggered by grief. What symptoms are you referring to that were "almost the same exact symptoms as Van gogh"?

 

[einsteinian77]

Van gogh's symptoms are not just limited to epilepsy. I've never heard of anyone cutting of their ear or hearing voices from any epilepsy caused sickness.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
Van gogh's symptoms are not just limited to epilepsy. I've never heard of anyone cutting of their ear or hearing voices from any epilepsy caused sickness.

Actually, people with simple and complex partial seizures do hear voices. They are subject to an incredible variety of physical sensations and sensory illusions.
Each person with epilepsy has his own personal mixture of seizure symptoms. Most forms of epilepsy do not involve any muscular convulsions. The general public is not aware of this.

Also, people who hear disembodied voices try an incredible number of things to silence them. The most popular nowadays is a portable music player with headphones and the volume turned up. People try earplugs, stuffing cotton in their ears, shouting at the voices to "Shut up!", and in some cases they try injuring their own ears. I think this must be a very horrible thing to experience.

Here is a link to an article that speaks about the difficulty sometimes experienced in distinguishing between complex partial seizures and mental illness.

Psychiatric Times
Address:http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p950927.html

 

[hypnagogue]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
You are also ignoring that on the night before he cut his ear he was drinking absinthe, which is so well known to trigger seizures that it has been outlawed.

Damn, where can I get me summa that?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by hypnagogue
Damn, where can I get me summa that?

A couple/three years ago it was getting a lot of press, making a comeback among avant-guard types, because apparently the "high" and mild hallucinations are quite pleasant. It is nicknamed "The Green Fairy".

Currently this street drug called "Special K" is the epileptogen that people are taking, mostly without realizing it puts them in danger of going into a grand mal seizure. It also causes the "Out of Body" experience pretty reliably, such that one researcher uses it to induce the OBE in his studies of that experience. I consider him quite reckless.

 

[einsteinian77]

It doesn't say anything about hearing "voices" just that sounds appear to be farther, closer, fainter, and more distinct then they actual are.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
It doesn't say anything about hearing "voices" just that sounds appear to be farther, closer, fainter, and more distinct then they actual are.

Let me do a little digging and I'll come up with an article that specifically mentions hearing voices.

 

[einsteinian77]

All I'm saying is that I've studied a little bit on epilepsy and I never heard of anyone hearing voices.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
All I'm saying is that I've studied a little bit on epilepsy and I never heard of anyone hearing voices.

It isn't the most common hallucination, to be sure, but I have probably read a dozen references to it happening in stuff I've read completely unrelated to the van Gogh case.

I don't want you to just take my word for this, and I will, indeed, find one of these references at least for you to have a look at.

 

[hypnagogue]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
A couple/three years ago it was getting a lot of press, making a comeback among avant-guard types, because apparently the "high" and mild hallucinations are quite pleasant. It is nicknamed "The Green Fairy".

It used to be quite popular back in the day among artists and poets, wasn't it? Not just a peculiarity to Van Gogh? I recall reading that for some reason.

And for whatever reason, most of the things that induce mild hallucinations turn out to be quite pleasant. Might have something to do with a common serotogenic effect among them.

Currently this street drug called "Special K" is the epileptogen that people are taking, mostly without realizing it puts them in danger of going into a grand mal seizure. It also causes the "Out of Body" experience pretty reliably, such that one researcher uses it to induce the OBE in his studies of that experience. I consider him quite reckless.

I think people realize that, and even seek it out-- they probably just don't know that it's a grand mal seizure at work. It's called a K-hole. I've heard very bad stories, and very good stories, which is kind of par for the course with hallucinogenics.

Is there long term danger related to inducing a grand mal seizure? From what I understand, a seizure is just synchronous firing of neurons. So while maybe the underlying chemical mechanisms may turn out to be toxic to the brain, I don't see how a period of synchronous firing in itself could have deleterious long term effects-- assuming it doesn't make one more susceptible to seizures in the future.

 

[einsteinian77]

I have no doubt that epilepsy amplified Van gogh's eccentricities but I think he would have been mentally insane without epilepsy.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
It doesn't say anything about hearing "voices" just that sounds appear to be farther, closer, fainter, and more distinct then they actual are.

OK, here's one:

Health Library - Aura and seizures
Address:http://health_info.nmh.org/Library/HealthGuide/IllnessConditions/topic.asp?hwid=tm6354

I'll be editing in a couple more.

OK, go here and scroll down to "Partial Seizures" then read the second paragraph:

Health Library - Aura and seizures
Address:http://health_info.nmh.org/Library/HealthGuide/IllnessConditions/topic.asp?hwid=tm6354

This next one is a personal web page I found by a guy with seizures (quite a religious guy, it seems). His report of hearing a disembodied voice is in the third paragraph:

A Brief Message of Hope - My Message
Address:http://www.abriefmessageofhope.exactpages.com/testimony.html

 

[rick1138]

It the paints were to blame all the painters of that time would have had the same symptoms.

vanGogh was notoriously slovenly, and a lot of painters in the history of art have been affected neegatively by their materials.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by hypnagogue


It used to be quite popular back in the day among artists and poets, wasn't it? Not just a peculiarity to Van Gogh? I recall reading that for some reason.[/B]

It was all the rage. Van Gogh had ordered his absinthe at the cafe. He didn't bring a surreptitiously concealed brown paper bag.

And for whatever reason, most of the things that induce mild hallucinations turn out to be quite pleasant. Might have something to do with a common serotogenic effect among them.

I really don't know.

I think people realize that, and even seek it out-- they probably just don't know that it's a grand mal seizure at work. It's called a K-hole. I've heard very bad stories, and very good stories, which is kind of par for the course with hallucinogenics.

I don't see the appeal. What the experiencer of a grand mal seizure gets is unconsciousness followed by post-ictal confusion, the feeling you've been hit by a car from the sore muscles, and a bloody tongue or cheek from when your jaw clamped down on them.

From what I understand, a seizure is just synchronous firing of neurons. So while maybe the underlying chemical mechanisms may turn out to be toxic to the brain, I don't see how a period of synchronous firing in itself could have deleterious long term effects-- assuming it doesn't make one more susceptible to seizures in the future.

It is generally accepted that it does make you more susceptible.
Also, grand mal seizures in particular lead to a brief period where parts of the brain are starved of blood for a while.

Neurologist Wilder Penfield witnessed this with his own eyes when he had a guy's scull open in preparation for surgery, and induced him to have a seizure with an electrode and tiny voltage (the guy was already epileptic, incidently).

After the seizure, Penfield saw several patches of the man's brain turn from the normal pink to dead white as the blood supply was cut off. This kind of blood starvation just plain kills neurons. Dead neurons cause more seizures.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by rick1138
vanGogh was notoriously slovenly

Citations? Also need quotes, etc demonstrating the others weren't.

and a lot of painters in the history of art have been affected neegatively by their materials.

Citations? Proof? Evidence that rules out all other causes for any symptom?

I'm not arguing that the materials were not toxic. But to attribute the cause of a mental condition that started becoming severe problem for van Gogh long before he started to paint, to his paints, is nonsence. If you want to explain his mental problems this way you have to do some serious ignoring of the long history of obsessive and strange behaviour that preceeded his decision to become an artist.

 

[hypnagogue]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
It was all the rage. Van Gogh had ordered his absinthe at the cafe. He didn't bring a surreptitiously concealed brown paper bag.

That's no way to treat a Green Fairy, anyway.

I don't see the appeal. What the experiencer of a grand mal seizure gets is unconsciousness followed by post-ictal confusion, the feeling you've been hit by a car from the sore muscles, and a bloody tongue or cheek from when your jaw clamped down on them.

OK, that's not what I was talking about. Little intense there. I've never heard of anyone getting that bad on Ketamine (not to say I don't think it's possible). I've heard of people going unconscious, and out of body and the like, but not the sore muscles or clamped jaw.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by hypnagogue
That's no way to treat a Green Fairy, anyway.

Gauche, for sure.

OK, that's not what I was talking about. Little intense there. I've never heard of anyone getting that bad on Ketamine (not to say I don't think it's possible). I've heard of people going unconscious, and out of body and the like, but not the sore muscles or clamped jaw.

Sorry about the intensity. The grand mal isn't called the grand mal for nothing.
I'm not well versed in the Ketamine symptoms at all. I've just read a bit by accident here and there. I do know that some people have been sent into grand mal seizures by it. This could be because they really overdosed, or these could be people who had a preexisting seizure condition they weren't aware of. (In some cases people have been seizing in their sleep for a long time before it starts happening during the day).

The OBE is a seizure, but just a simple partial. Chemically inducing this is to run the risk it won't stop at the parietal lobes, but will generalize.

Electro-convulsive therapy is more and more being replaced by chemically induced seizures. I don't know what drug thy use. I wonder if it isn't Ketamine or a close relative? I could do a search, I suppose.

 

[sandinmyears]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
Van gogh's symptoms are not just limited to epilepsy. I've never heard of anyone cutting of their ear or hearing voices from any epilepsy caused sickness.

Actually, "hearing voices," or auditory hallucinations are very common in Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. I, myself, have TLE. For me, this amounts to simple-partial, complex-partial, and tonic-clonic (AKA grand-mal) seizures. In 1988, I had a left anterior temporal lobectomy to correct this problem. Though I still have epilepsy, there was a tremendous improvement in them.

Before the surgery in '88, when I would have a complex-partial seizure (the type where you don't lose complete consciousness, but you aren't in total control of your faculties either), I would have what are known as "auditory hallucinations." I would hear things. Voices especially. Frightening voices. They sounded like something out of a scarey movie. (It's very understandable how it was at one time believed that people with epilepsy were posessed by demons because if I myself didn't know better, I might have thought the same).

During a complex-partial seizure, I would become very paranoid. I would be afraid to let anyone come near me and the voices didn't help matters in the least. I would hear the voices saying things to me like "I'm going to get you." Some of you may be giggling as you read this, and perhaps I would giggle if I read something like this as well-- had I never experienced it. But it was very real and it was terribly frightening. It is something I would never wish on anyone.

After my surgery, the voices stopped. The complex-partials only occur (on average) once a year. When they do, I still have auditory hallucinations, but all I hear is a vibrating sound. Noises sound unusual. (Weird). Imagine someone talking through a fan. That weird vibrating noise is how noises sound to me-- but they aren't frightening anymore. (Actually, I find them to be funny-- and that's a nice change).

~Sandy

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
I have no doubt that epilepsy amplified Van gogh's eccentricities but I think he would have been mentally insane without epilepsy.

Go back to this link:

Psychiatric Times
Address:http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p950927.html

and scroll down to the section titled "TLE Personality?" The 6th paragraph of that section starts with the sentence "Episodes of frank psychosis can be the initial presentation of TLE..."
This shows that epilepsy can present in ways that are indistinguishable from mental illness, but which are, in fact, epileptic in origin.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by sandinmyears
I, myself, have TLE. For me, this amounts to simple-partial, complex-partial, and tonic-clonic (AKA grand-mal) seizures.
~Sandy

Just like van Gogh, you have all three levels of seizure. For people who don't know:

Simple Partial=completely conscious

Complex Partial=defect of consciousness

Generalized = total loss of consciouness. (Happens during Tonic-Clonic, Atonic, and Absence seizures)

 

[einsteinian77]

I stand corrected

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
I stand corrected

Not just the general public, but a huge percentage of doctors don't know what you just learned about epilepsy. Strangely, some neurologists don't even know it.

The percentage of people with epilepsy who present as mentally ill isn't very large, maybe 10% or less. For a long time, however, all epileptics used to get lumped in with the mentally ill in insane asylums.

Organizations like The National Epilepsy Foundation (or whatever it's called) did a lot of pushing for many years to get the fact that it ever presents as mental illness played down to the point where it became politically incorrect to even allude to it.

Thats fine except that a lot of epileptics started getting incorrectly diagnosed as bipolar and schizophrenic, because no one thought to check for seizures. If you take someone acting strangely to a psychiatrist he will look for a psychiatric cause or something drug related. Seizures?
They haven't a clue.

 

[einsteinian77]

was epilepsy also responsible for when Van Gogh sent the ear to gauguin?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
was epilepsy also responsible for when Van Gogh sent the ear to gauguin?

He didn't send it to Gauguin. He wrapped it up in paper and left it on the stoop of a brothel with a note that it was a "keepsake" for one of the prostitutes there who had once posed for him. This happened after he finally got the bleeding stopped from cutting the ear, so it was part of the same episode, yes.

 

[einsteinian77]

Have you ever seen the movie about Vincent and his brother? I think Van gogh was played by Tim Roth and its not that bad of a movie.Do you know how accurately that movie relate to actual events?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
Have you ever seen the movie about Vincent and his brother? I think Van gogh was played by Tim Roth and its not that bad of a movie.Do you know how accurately that movie relate to actual events?

No, I didn't see that one. Tim Roth doesn't even sound familiar. What else would I know him from?

 

[einsteinian77]

He was ringo(the guy who held up the diner) in pulp fiction

 

[hypnagogue]

Just curious, why the strong distinction between epilepsy and mental illness? Assuming mental illness is just the result of dysfunctional brain activity, wouldn't epilepsy fall under that category? I realize epileptics are perfectly normal when they aren't having a seizure, but aren't (for instance) bipolar people normal when they aren't on one of their highs or lows?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
He was ringo(the guy who held up the diner) in pulp fiction

I saw that. He was really good.

 

[einsteinian77]

They chose well for that movie Roth looks just like Van gogh

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by hypnagogue
Just curious, why the strong distinction between epilepsy and mental illness? Assuming mental illness is just the result of dysfunctional brain activity, wouldn't epilepsy fall under that category?

This distinction has to do with the perspectives that have been artificially adopted toward the two. Epilepsy has, for roughly 100 years or more, been considered a brain dysfunction. It is universally accepted that the brain as a physical organ of the body is not functioning correctly for purely physical reasons.

"Mental" illness has spent most of the 20th century being regarded as a disease of the "mind". It has really only been in the past thirty years that mental illness has started to be looked at as a result of unbalanced brain chemistry, as a physiological problem.

I realize epileptics are perfectly normal when they aren't having a seizure, but aren't (for instance) bipolar people normal when they aren't on one of their highs or lows?

Actually, I think it is safe to say in the case of bipolars that most of them, when not medicated, are always up, down. or on their way up or down. There aren't natural periods of calm and rest in most cases I've read about.

It's also not universally true that people with seizures are perfectly normal between seizures. Some people with temporal lobe seizures, in particular, experience interesting changes in their personalities that you wouldn't expect. They become very interested in things that require a lot of deep thinking: philosophy, religion, ethics. Some become attracted to artistic persuits for the same reason; as an outlet for the expression of serious modes of thinking. They are not interested in trifles and amusements - just weighty, heavy stuff. They get into writing, lots of writing, writing down their thoughts and philosophies in excruciating detail. One famous neurologist invented a name for this: "hypergraphia". This obsessive philosophizing and voluminous writing can resemble mania somewhat.

The other thing you might notice is emotional volatility between seizures. TLEers tend to get two or three times more emotional about anything than someone else would. the theory is that the limbic system is rendered more tender or touchy by the seizure activity even when the person isn't seizing.

 

[einsteinian77]

I just noticed that up top had advertisements of van gogh art along with razors

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by einsteinian77
I just noticed that up top had advertisements of van gogh art along with razors

This add service reads the pages, I think, and scans its database for adds that match words mentioned alot. Sick coincidence in this case.

 

[S = k log w]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Not just the general public, but a huge percentage of doctors don't know what you just learned about epilepsy. Strangely, some neurologists don't even know it.

The percentage of people with epilepsy who present as mentally ill isn't very large, maybe 10% or less. For a long time, however, all epileptics used to get lumped in with the mentally ill in insane asylums.

Organizations like The National Epilepsy Foundation (or whatever it's called) did a lot of pushing for many years to get the fact that it ever presents as mental illness played down to the point where it became politically incorrect to even allude to it.

Thats fine except that a lot of epileptics started getting incorrectly diagnosed as bipolar and schizophrenic, because no one thought to check for seizures. If you take someone acting strangely to a psychiatrist he will look for a psychiatric cause or something drug related. Seizures?
They haven't a clue.

How can I tell the difference between an Epileptic, a Bi-Polar, and a Schizophenic?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by S = k log w
How can I tell the difference between an Epileptic, a Bi-Polar, and a Schizophenic?

Loaded question. Bipolar disorders and schizophrenia are in a constant state of flux regarding their definitions. I have heard a rumor, for instance, that the next edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is going to include a new category of bipolar disorder. (There are currently 4 catagories of bipolar: Bipolar 1, Bipolar 2, Cyclothymic Disorder, and Bipolar Disorder Not Otherwise Specified.)

Psychiatry applies labels according to symptoms. They have never been able to isolate a specific organic cause for "schizophrenia" for example. Instead, research has come up with a bag of miscellaneous possible causes: enlarged ventricles, allergies, viral damage to the brain, and so on. So, there is actually no such animal as "schizophrenia" in the way there is Parkinson's disease or Multiple Sclerosis or Seizure Disorders. The same is true of bipolar.

The difference between seizures and strange behaviour due to other causes can only be definitively proven by detection of seizure activity with an EEG.

The trouble is that the EEG is limited to picking up signals occurring near the surface of the brain. Using the technique of depth implanted electrodes to specifically locate the seizure focus in people being prepared for epilepsy surgery, it was discovered that often the bulk of seizure activity is occurring at depths that will never be picked up with a surface EEG. A study I read found that in the case of simple partial seizures, only 21% showed up on the surface EEG! This presents the physician with the problem that, while an EEG positive for seizure activity rules a seizure in, an EEG negative for seizure activity cannot rule a seizure out.

This being the case, the best course of action is to be sure to include thorough questioning of the patient concerning experiences that are known seizure symptoms. For example, if a person comes with a primary complaint of hearing voices and fear there is a grand conspiracy against them, in depth questioning might also reveal a frequent feeling that they have left their body and are floating above it (simple partial seizure) as well as a peculiar, rising fluttery feeling in the stomach area (simple partial seizure). Then, instead of injecting them with Haldol or Prolyxin, which will just lower the seizure threshold and make things considerably worse, an appropriate medication would be tried.

 

[sandinmyears]

When a psychiatric evaluation is done and Epilepsy is taken into account, it is listed under AXIS III in the evaluation. Axis III is taking into account physical disorders which can also cause psychiatric problems as well. In epilepsy those could (but don't necessarily) include be "Interictal (between seizure/s) Dysphoric Disorder," "Pre-ictal (before seizure/s), Ictal (seizure/s), Post-ictal (after seizure/s), and Interictal (between seizure/s) Depression." Situational depression is also common with a long-term/chronic illness.

Bipolar Disorder and Schizophrenia are Axis I disorders. That is, they are primarily psychiatric disorders. From what I understand, Axis I disorders are usually innate and often genetic. They often "run in families." A person may be genetically pre-disposed toward having Bipolar Disorder or Schizophrenia. Since we see ADHD more often, this is a good example. It is not at all uncommon for one child with ADHD to have sisters or brothers with the same disorder as well. Many adults are also being diagnosed with ADHD as well after their children are first being found to have the disorder.

Axis II disorders are listed in 2 categories. One is "personality disorders." I believe that personality disorders are not thought to be innate or genetic. Often personality disorders come about as a result of circumstances. Child abuse might be an example, (but that's not to say that everyone with a personality disorder was an abused child). The second category in Axis II is "Mental retardation."

 

[zoobyshoe]

As far as I know, when a psychiatric evaluation is done, and epilepsy is taken into account, it is a miracle. Almost never happens in nature.

 

[sandinmyears]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
As far as I know, when a psychiatric evaluation is done, and epilepsy is taken into account, it is a miracle. Almost never happens in nature.

That's because psychiatrists don't want to tread on the neurologists' territory and vice versa. "Neuropsychology" is a step in the right direction.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by sandinmyears
That's because psychiatrists don't want to tread on the neurologists' territory and vice versa.

I'm afraid you are too nice a person for this world to come to this kind conclusion. I think most psychiatrists simply haven't got a clue that epilepsy can present very much like mental illness.

"Neuropsychology" is a step in the right direction.

I haven't heard of this. Are you thinking of "Neuropsychiatry" or is there also "Neuropsychology"?
Two names for the same thing, maybe?

 

[sandinmyears]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe

I haven't heard of this. Are you thinking of "Neuropsychiatry" or is there also "Neuropsychology"?
Two names for the same thing, maybe?

http://www.wkni.org/neuropsych.cfm
http://www.nyuepilepsy.org/cec/nyu_cecservices.jsp?nav=programs
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.44.s6.10.x/abs/
http://www.neuropsychologycentral.com/

 

[S = k log w]

Much of what you have posted is false. "People with simple and complex seizures do hear voices.."

Only a few people 'hear voices'. Some people hear noises,
few actually hear voices.
I have never heard of anyone attempting to mask any noise with cotton, nor with headphones, nor have I have heard of anyone shout out "Stop them". No one has injured their ears because they attempt to stop the noise or voices. People have had injury to their ears by reason of the fact that they had fallen and injured themselves. I have epilepsy, I had been a medical researcher, and I run two web sites about epilepsy.

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Actually, people with simple and complex partial seizures do hear voices. They are subject to an incredible variety of physical sensations and sensory illusions.
Each person with epilepsy has his own personal mixture of seizure symptoms. Most forms of epilepsy do not involve any muscular convulsions. The general public is not aware of this.

Also, people who hear disembodied voices try an incredible number of things to silence them. The most popular nowadays is a portable music player with headphones and the volume turned up. People try earplugs, stuffing cotton in their ears, shouting at the voices to "Shut up!", and in some cases they try injuring their own ears. I think this must be a very horrible thing to experience.

Here is a link to an article that speaks about the difficulty sometimes experienced in distinguishing between complex partial seizures and mental illness.

Psychiatric Times
Address:http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p950927.html

 

[sandinmyears]

Originally posted by S = k log w
Much of what you have posted is false. "People with simple and complex seizures do hear voices.."

Only a few people 'hear voices'. Some people hear noises,
few actually hear voices.
I have never heard of anyone attempting to mask any noise with cotton, nor with headphones, nor have I have heard of anyone shout out "Stop them". No one has injured their ears because they attempt to stop the noise or voices. People have had injury to their ears by reason of the fact that they had fallen and injured themselves. I have epilepsy, I had been a medical researcher, and I run two web sites about epilepsy.

Well, S = k log w, I must just be one of those "few" because those "voices" would scare the jeebers out of me.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by S = k log w
Much of what you have posted is false.

No, it is not.

Only a few people 'hear voices'.

What do you mean? Literally only between five and ten? (A few?) I posted links earlier in this thread which show that hearing voices occurs often enough in TLE not to be considered some kind of freak symptom.

few actually hear voices.

It would be more accurate to say what I said, which is that the percentage is small:it is not the most common symptom.

I have never heard of anyone attempting to mask any noise with cotton, nor with headphones, nor have I have heard of anyone shout out "Stop them". No one has injured their ears because they attempt to stop the noise or voices. People have had injury to their ears by reason of the fact that they had fallen and injured themselves.

You are taking my remark about how disturbing it must be to have this experience, in general (which would include when it happens in schizophrenia, bipolar, and in some dementias) and misconstrued it to be a description by me of common ictal behaviour among those who hear voices during seizures.

People who hear voices do, in fact, use all the tactics I described to try and stop them. I mentioned these things by way of describing what a frightening and invasive experience hearing voices can be. A man who lives in my building now who hears them, told me he used to box his own ears in an attempt to deafen himself.

I would guess that most people hearing abusive or terrifying voices during a seizure would not have the presence of mind to do anything in particular about it. Yet they would have the same fear, which was my point.

Van Gogh, if his voices were seizure generated, was atypical in that he did take radical action to stop them. (He was an atypical person in all respects.) Since he was drinking the epileptogenic beverage, absinthe, the night before, and since he was observed having a tonic-clonic seizure some months later, Occam's Razor guides us to suspect a seizure as the cause of his voices.