Differentiation under the integral in retarded potentials

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differentiation under the integral sign in the context of retarded potentials, particularly focusing on the application of this concept to the Lorenz gauge magnetodynamic retarded vector potential and its relationship to Maxwell's equations. Participants explore the conditions under which differentiation can be performed and the implications of compact support for the functions involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states an identity involving differentiation under the integral sign for a bounded measurable function and discusses its application to the magnetostatic vector potential.
  • Another participant questions the implications of compact support on the ability to differentiate under the integral sign, providing an analogy to illustrate their point.
  • A participant attempts to adapt a proof to the retarded potential scenario, suggesting that similar reasoning can be applied if certain conditions about the function's smoothness and compact support are met.
  • There is a request for confirmation regarding the correctness of conclusions drawn about the continuity of derivatives of the integral expression related to the retarded potential.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the conditions necessary for differentiation under the integral sign, particularly concerning the compact support of the functions involved. There is no clear consensus on whether the proposed conditions are sufficient or necessary for the differentiation to hold.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the compact support of the function may not necessarily imply the compact support of the modified function used in the differentiation process. The discussion highlights the need for careful consideration of the assumptions involved in the mathematical reasoning.

DavideGenoa
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Hello, friends! I know, thanks to @Hawkeye18 who proved this identity to me, that, if ##\phi:V\to\mathbb{R}## is a bounded measurable function defined on the bounded measurable domain ##V\subset\mathbb{R}^3##, then, for any ##k\in\{1,2,3\}##,
$$\frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\int_V \frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{r})}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|} d\mu_{\boldsymbol{r}}= \int_V \frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\left(\frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{r})}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|}\right) d\mu_{\boldsymbol{r}}.$$
An important application of this result is the proof that the magnetostatic vector potential ##\frac{\mu_0}{4\pi}\int_\mathbb{R}^3 \frac{\boldsymbol{J}(\boldsymbol{r})}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|} d\mu_{\boldsymbol{r}}## satisfies Ampère's law.
Since I am, fuitlessly until now, trying to prove to myself that the Lorenz gauge magnetodynamic retarded vector potential satisfies Maxwell's equations, I am wondering whether, given a constant ##c##, it is also true that $$\frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\int_V \frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{r},t-c^{-1}\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|)}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|} d\mu_{\boldsymbol{r}}= \int_V \frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\left(\frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{r},t-c^{-1}\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|)}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|}\right) d\mu_{\boldsymbol{r}}$$for, say ##\phi\in C^2(\mathbb{R}^4)## and ##\phi(-,t)## compactly supported as a function of the first vector variable.
If it is true, how could we prove it?
I ##\infty##-ly thank any answerer!
 
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DavideGenoa said:
Since I am, fuitlessly until now, trying to prove to myself that the Lorenz gauge magnetodynamic retarded vector potential satisfies Maxwell's equations, I am wondering whether, given a constant ##c##, it is also true that $$\frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\int_V \frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{r},t-c^{-1}\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|)}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|} d\mu_{\boldsymbol{r}}= \int_V \frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\left(\frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{r},t-c^{-1}\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|)}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{r}\|}\right) d\mu_{\boldsymbol{r}}$$for, say ##\phi\in C^2(\mathbb{R}^4)## and ##\phi(-,t)## compactly supported as a function of the first vector variable.
If it is true, how could we prove it?
I ##\infty##-ly thank any answerer!

I assume that you mean \| \mathbf{r} - \mathbf{r'} \|, and that you mean \frac{\partial}{\partial r'_k}?

I have not worked out the extent to which \phi being compactly supported affects whether you can pull the partial derivative inside the integral. However, your modified problem is obtained from the original by replacing \phi(\mathbf{r}) by \tilde{\phi}(\mathbf{r}) \equiv \phi(\mathbf{r}, t - \frac{1}{c} \| \mathbf{r} - \mathbf{r'} \|). But knowing that \phi(\mathbf{r}, t) is compactly supported in the first argument doesn't necessarily imply that \tilde{\phi} is compactly supported.

Here's a analogous problem:

Let f(x,y) be a function that is zero unless |x| < 2|y|. So that's compactly supported in the first argument. But if we define \tilde{f}(x,y) = f(x, y-x), then \tilde{f} is not compactly supported in the first argument.
 
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Thank you very much! Yes, @stevendaryl, I meant:

Hello, friends! I know, thanks to @Hawkeye18 who proved this identity to me, that, if ##\phi:V\to\mathbb{R}## is a bounded measurable function defined on the bounded measurable domain ##V\subset\mathbb{R}^3##, then, for any ##k\in\{1,2,3\}##,
$$\frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\int_V \frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{l})}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|} d\mu_{\boldsymbol{l}}= \int_V \frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\left(\frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{l})}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|}\right) d\mu_{\boldsymbol{l}}.$$
An important application of this result is the proof that the magnetostatic vector potential ##\frac{\mu_0}{4\pi}\int_\mathbb{R}^3 \frac{\boldsymbol{J}(\boldsymbol{l})}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|} d\mu_{\boldsymbol{l}}## satisfies Ampère's law.
Since I am, fuitlessly until now, trying to prove to myself that the Lorenz gauge magnetodynamic retarded vector potential satisfies Maxwell's equations, I am wondering whether, given a constant ##c##, it is also true that $$\frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\int_V \frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{l},t-c^{-1}\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|)}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|} d\mu_{\boldsymbol{l}}= \int_V \frac{\partial}{\partial r_k}\left(\frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{l},t-c^{-1}\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|)}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|}\right) d\mu_{\boldsymbol{l}}$$for, say ##\phi\in C^2(\mathbb{R}^4)## and ##\phi(-,t)## compactly supported as a function of the first vector variable.
If it is true, how could we prove it?
I ##\infty##-ly thank any answerer!
 
Dear @stevendaryl , I have tried to adapt the proof by Hawkeye18 to this problem, and, as far as I understand, it can used in an almost identical way, with ##\frac{\partial }{\partial r_k}\left(\frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{l},t-c^1\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|)}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|} \right)## instead of ##\frac{\partial }{\partial r_k}\left(\frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{l})}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|} \right)##, provided for example that ##\phi\in C^2(\mathbb{R}^4)## and that the two functions $$\boldsymbol{l}\mapsto \phi(\boldsymbol{l},t-c^1\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|)$$$$\boldsymbol{l}\mapsto \dot\phi(\boldsymbol{l},t-c^1\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|)$$ are compactly supported. This last condition is met if ##\phi\in C_2^2(\mathbb{R}^4)##.
By following Hawkeye18's reasoning we also see that the derivatives of ##V:=\frac{1}{4\pi\varepsilon}\int_{\mathbb{R}^3} \frac{\phi(\boldsymbol{l},t-c^1\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|)}{\|\boldsymbol{r}-\boldsymbol{l}\|} d\mu_{\boldsymbol{l}} ## are continuous and also that ##V\in C^1(\mathbb{R}^3)##.
Am I right? I ##\infty##-ly thank you!
 
@stevendaryl and anyone else reading: Are my conclusions in the preceding post correct?
 

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