Direct Experimental Evidence of Lorentz Transformations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the experimental evidence for Lorentz transformations, specifically focusing on time dilation and length contraction. Participants explore the implications of these concepts through various examples, including atomic clocks and the behavior of molecules and muons at relativistic speeds.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that time dilation has been experimentally confirmed using atomic clocks on jets, while questioning the existence of direct evidence for length contraction.
  • One participant suggests that sending large molecules through a narrow slit could demonstrate length contraction, positing that more molecules would pass through at relativistic speeds.
  • Another participant argues that length contraction would not aid in passing through the slit, suggesting that width contraction does not occur.
  • Evidence from muon decay is mentioned, with some asserting that time dilation and length contraction are interconnected, implying that evidence for one supports the other.
  • Magnetism is discussed as a relativistic effect, with references to textbooks that present magnetic phenomena in terms of length contraction.
  • Some participants claim there is no direct experimental evidence of length contraction, but rather inferred corroboration, leading to a discussion about what constitutes "direct" evidence.
  • There is a philosophical debate regarding Lorentz's explanation of the Michelson-Morley experiment, with some asserting that both Lorentz's and Einstein's explanations are valid but differ in assumptions.
  • Concerns are raised about the feasibility of measuring length changes in slowly moving rods to a precision of 1 part per billion, with one participant suggesting that controlling temperature and rod dimensions to such precision is impractical.
  • A later reply connects the earlier discussion to measurable forces resulting from length contraction in charge carriers at low drift velocities.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence and interpretation of direct evidence for length contraction, with no consensus reached. The discussion includes both supportive and skeptical perspectives regarding Lorentz's explanations and the implications of experimental results.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in measuring length changes due to the extreme precision required, which may not be achievable with current technology. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of what constitutes direct evidence in the context of relativistic effects.

Thecla
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Direct experimental evidence of time slowing down for moving clocks is well-known. With the advent of atomic clocks, round trip journeys taken by these clocks on slow moving(compared to light speed) jets show time differences with clocks that have not taken the journey.

But is there experimental evidence of length contraction. I am thinking of something like sending a large molecule through a narrow stationary slit. At room temperature(slow speeds) the molecule would not make it through the slit, but if they can be accelerated to ~10% of the speed of light, more of the molecules will go through the slit.

In this example I use a molecule since it might be easy to accelerate, but any projectile would do.
 
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Thecla said:
Direct experimental evidence of time slowing down for moving clocks is well-known. With the advent of atomic clocks, round trip journeys taken by these clocks on slow moving(compared to light speed) jets show time differences with clocks that have not taken the journey.

But is there experimental evidence of length contraction. I am thinking of something like sending a large molecule through a narrow stationary slit. At room temperature(slow speeds) the molecule would not make it through the slit, but if they can be accelerated to ~10% of the speed of light, more of the molecules will go through the slit.

In this example I use a molecule since it might be easy to accelerate, but any projectile would do.
Length Contraction was provided by Lorentz as the explanation for the null result of the Michelson Morley Experiment. Isn't that good enough?
 
Length contraction would not help it going through the slit. You would need width contraction, which doesn't happen.
 
Magnetism is a purely relativistic effect, and there are simple, ordinary examples of magnetic phenomena that have extremely direct interpretations in terms of length contraction. There is a nice presentation of this in the classic textbook Electricity and Magnetism, by Purcell. A similar and somewhat simpler presentation is given in sec. 23.2 of my book Light and Matter: http://www.lightandmatter.com/lm/
 
"Length Contraction was provided by Lorentz as the explanation for the null result of the Michelson Morley Experiment."
But Lorentz was wrong. There is no direct experimental evidence of length contraction, but there is inferred corroboration.
For instance, as Russ suggests, the extended decay length of muons can be interpreted as the distance getting smaller in the muon's rest frame.
 
Meir Achuz said:
But Lorentz was wrong
Lorentz was wrong about the aether, not about length contraction.
 
Meir Achuz said:
There is no direct experimental evidence of length contraction, but there is inferred corroboration.

I suppose this depends on what you consider to be "direct." I would claim that the evidence I gave in #5 is extremely direct.
 
bcrowell said:
I suppose this depends on what you consider to be "direct."
That is a good point. In some sense, the requirement for "direct" evidence simply means that the requestor is aware that there is experimental evidence but remains unconvinced by it for whatever reason.
 
  • #10
"Length Contraction was provided by Lorentz as the explanation for "Length Contraction was provided by Lorentz as the explanation for the null result of the Michelson Morley Experiment."
Do you think that Lorentz gave the correct explanation of the null result of the Michelson Morley Experiment?
 
  • #11
Meir Achuz said:
"Length Contraction was provided by Lorentz as the explanation for "Length Contraction was provided by Lorentz as the explanation for the null result of the Michelson Morley Experiment."
Do you think that Lorentz gave the correct explanation of the null result of the Michelson Morley Experiment?
What does correct mean? If it explains all the experimental results then you cannot say it is incorrect. The difference between Lorentz's explanation and Einstein's explanation is a matter of assumptions or postulates. Both correctly explain the experimental results. We cannot chose between them by any experiment. The choice is philosophical and we generally choose Einstein's because it is simpler, not because we can claim it is correct and Lorentz's is incorrect.
 
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  • #12
With the advent of of atomic clocks in the last century we could measure small changes in elapsed time to better than1 part per billion enabling slowly moving clocks to show different times. I am convinced of Lorentz contraction, but I was hoping for some way to measure changes in the length of slowly moving rods to 1 part per billion.
 
  • #13
Thecla said:
I was hoping for some way to measure changes in the length of slowly moving rods to 1 part per billion.

No way. Forget moving rods - start with the simpler case of a stationary rod. A part per billion means if you have it a few inches long you need the faces to be flat to within a single atom. It means you need to control the temperature of the rod to within one ten-thousandth of a degree.
 
  • #14
Thecla said:
With the advent of of atomic clocks in the last century we could measure small changes in elapsed time to better than1 part per billion enabling slowly moving clocks to show different times. I am convinced of Lorentz contraction, but I was hoping for some way to measure changes in the length of slowly moving rods to 1 part per billion.

That's exactly what happens in the example I described in #5. The drift velocity of the charge carriers is ~1 cm/s. They length-contract, and the result is a measurable force.
 

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