News Discussing Cuba: Sources, Experiences, Successes, and Struggles

[TheStatutoryApe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

http://www.netforcuba.org/

Here are some general sources on Cuba. Yes one of them is Anti-Castro (two if you automatically catagorize the CIA factbook as such but it seems rather impartial to me). I link the Net For Cuba site because it discusses the issues that people have with Cuba from the perspective of Cubans.
Cuba and Castro et al have been mentioned a number of times here and at least some people seem to indicate that they believe Cuba is a rather successful socialist experiment. These same members don't seem to have much idea why certain people feel such a strong desire to leave Cuba that they risk their lives to immigrate illegally to the US on make shift rafts. Ofcourse no one here has made a case for why they would want to do so either.

At least one member has stated that she will not accept any information from Net For Cuba since they are obviously anti-cuba and anti-castro. To this, if it is an issue, I would have to say that while they may be anti-castro they are not anti-cuba unless you would like to invoke Bush logic and say that anyone who is anti-castro is anti-cuba. This ofcourse is Castro Logic as well. From browsing the website though I have not found them to be foaming at the mouth extremists. They appear to have legitimate grievences against the government regarding such things as http://www.netforcuba.org/HumanRights-EN/HumanRights/main.htm, http://www.netforcuba.org/Opposition-EN/IndependentPress/IndependentJourn.htm, http://www.netforcuba.org/InfoCuba-EN/Social/Main.htm, http://www.netforcuba.org/CubaPP/PresosEN.htm, and the general tyranny that won't even allow them to http://www.netforcuba.org/News-EN/2006/Jan/News907.htm. So if these people (the ones that are fleeing the country) are not to be believed then please explain to me why.

Please share your sources on Cuba and any experiences you may have with Cuba. If you think that the allegations of suppression and abuse are inacurate please provide sources of information to support this.
Lets also discuss the "success" of a country where it's citizens are purportedly abused, brainwashed, oppressed, and unable to even leave all owing directly to the actions and policies of the state.

 

[Smurf]

I don't think there's going to be any argument on the suppression of freedom of speech one. Kind of a moot point.

 

[alexandra]

Good idea, TSA - let's talk about Cuba... I don't have time right this moment to start an intelligent response to what you have posted; I logged on because there is another pressing issue I would like us to talk about and want to start a thread on. I'll return to this discussion later, though...

 

[Smurf]

Well, I found an interesting website.

Their obsession to discredit the Revolution with that uncontrollable migratory outflow had one of its most abhorrent episodes in "Operation Peter Pan" - whereby 14,000 Cuban children were deceitfully separated from their parents and taken to the United States. Parents were led to believe that the Cuban Government would remove their parental authority and the illegal exit of Cuban children to the United States was organized from that country.

http://www.canadiannetworkoncuba.ca/Documents/rafters.shtml

I'm going to look into this peter pan thing some more.

 

[alexandra]

Let's commence the discussion proper, then:

I link the Net For Cuba site because it discusses the issues that people have with Cuba from the perspective of Cubans.

Pardon me, TSA - I'd like to make a slight modification to what you write here: the Net for Cuba site discusses the issue from the perspective of some Cubans - to be accurate, it discusses the issue from Cubans who are no longer living in Cuba, who are now living in Florida, in fact. They do not know what daily life in Cuba is like right now. The view of Cubans living in Cuba is as follows:

In June of 2002, the Cuban National Assembly, after a petition by the population, amended the Cuban constitution to make socialism irrevocable. More: http://cubamigo.org/webcuba/socialismo.html

98.97% of the Cuban voters voted "Yes" for this amendment.

Cuba and Castro et al have been mentioned a number of times here and at least some people seem to indicate that they believe Cuba is a rather successful socialist experiment. These same members don't seem to have much idea why certain people feel such a strong desire to leave Cuba that they risk their lives to immigrate illegally to the US on make shift rafts. Ofcourse no one here has made a case for why they would want to do so either.

Let's talk numbers - how many 'refugees' are we talking about and, relatedly (to put it into perspective), what is the population of Cuba? From the CIA factbook, I see that the population of Cuba is numbered at approximately 11.3 million. I did a google search but can't seem to locate any figures of how many Cubans risk their lives annually to cross over to the 'paradise' of Florida.

At least one member has stated that she will not accept any information from Net For Cuba since they are obviously anti-cuba and anti-castro. To this, if it is an issue, I would have to say that while they may be anti-castro they are not anti-cuba unless you would like to invoke Bush logic and say that anyone who is anti-castro is anti-cuba. This ofcourse is Castro Logic as well.

Touche, TSA. No, I'm not saying that because they are anti-Castro, they are anti-Cuba. I am saying that anyone that is for capitalism is anti-people, so it is my particular perspective that leads me to make the statement that people who want to bring unbridled naked capitalism to Cuba (which seems to me to be what these characters want to do) are anti-people and therefore ‘anti-Cuba’.

From browsing the website though I have not found them to be foaming at the mouth extremists. They appear to have legitimate grievences against the government regarding such things as http://www.netforcuba.org/HumanRights-EN/HumanRights/main.htm, http://www.netforcuba.org/Opposition-EN/IndependentPress/IndependentJourn.htm, http://www.netforcuba.org/InfoCuba-EN/Social/Main.htm, http://www.netforcuba.org/CubaPP/PresosEN.htm, and the general tyranny that won't even allow them to http://www.netforcuba.org/News-EN/2006/Jan/News907.htm. So if these people (the ones that are fleeing the country) are not to be believed then please explain to me why.

Ok, perhaps some of their grievances may be legitimate (we need to discuss this in more depth, obviously). But some initial comments/observations regarding:
* “Suppression of political freedom” ("If you're not with us, you're against us" - a quote from a world famous and the most powerful politician; quiz question: who said that?)
* "Suppression of Freedom of Speech": *cough* excuse me: from a citizen whose country lives by the Patriot Act?
* General tyranny: can't comment - this is too general. Perhaps I can point to the general tyranny of life in the USA if one cannot afford health insurance, if one does not have a job, if one cannot strike for better working conditions?

Please share your sources on Cuba and any experiences you may have with Cuba. If you think that the allegations of suppression and abuse are inacurate please provide sources of information to support this.
Lets also discuss the "success" of a country where it's citizens are purportedly abused, brainwashed, oppressed, and unable to even leave all owing directly to the actions and policies of the state.

The key word here is 'purportedly'. It seems to me one has to choose whom to believe: for every one ex-Cuban person who makes such claims, how many Cuban people do not? Note the results of the vote I mentioned above.

And if we really want to discuss Cuba and the miserable living conditions there, we'd better also have a look at the role the US has played in the embargo against Cuba. This role stretches way beyond merely an economic embargo that has lasted 44 years [Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._embargo_against_Cuba] and which the US administration still insists on despite ‘overwhelming opposition’ from the ‘international community’ [Reference: http://www.g77.org/Speeches/110805.htm] .

Here, read the US administration’s attempts to sabotage the sharing of medical knowledge between medical workers:

Right now though, I'd like to talk about a pressing issue that has been on my mind for some time -- Cuba and the President's new restrictions on travel and trade.

Initially, we believed that the Bush administration's new restrictions on trade, travel and remittances would not seriously harm ordinary Cubans. That belief was wrong. On this last trip, I witnessed first-hand the impact these new regulations are having on the citizens of both Cuba and the United States. Family visits to Cuba from the U.S. are now limited to once every three years, even in the case of a sick or dying relative -- a ruling which I cannot begin to fathom. Even the definition of family has been curtailed to include only immediate family members, excluding cousins, uncles, aunts, etc... Moreover, new limits on remittances prevent Cubans from obtaining the hard currency they need to buy essential goods, such as soap, clothing and food.

On a personal level, one that impacts our work directly, American doctors are no longer allowed to teach their Cuban counterparts during surgical exchanges. The impact of these intensified restrictions is apparent, and they are simply cruel and inhumane.

http://www.disarm.org/newsroom/bobsblog/index.html

And here's some more information about how the US administration conspires to make Castro's country fail, to 'prove' that 'socialism can't work':

Infomed - Old Computers Find Second Life in Cuba
By Kellie Schmitt | Mercury News

When Palo Alto handyman Dudley Lewis sees old computers on the Peninsula, he thinks of all the potential they could have -- in Cuba.

"Here I am, running into people all the time with old computers,'' he said.

"I started collecting computers and I would get truckloads.''

Lewis is part of a group of local volunteers who gather valley leftovers and donate them for the Cuban medical community.

"I was really shocked at how many lives you could save with such little equipment,'' he said.

The Santa Clara-based group, USA-Cuba InfoMed, formed nine years ago to support Infomed, a health information system in the island country. The goal was to donate computers to help develop a network for medical information and databases.

The group selected Cuba because it was impressed with the outreach medical work done by Cuban doctors, such as staffing South African hospitals and treating Chernobyl victims.

Lewis was collecting computers on his own to donate to local non-profit groups when he heard about USA-Cuba InfoMed and decided to focus his efforts there. Since he had volunteered time with Central-American medical missions, he thought the Cuba program would be a good fit.

<snip>

However, as the Infomed network grows in Cuba, the demand grows for newer and more powerful computers. That has become a problem because the Bay Area group's license limits the power of the computers it can donate, Wald said. Many of the computers it receives are too advanced to comply with the government requirements, he said.

As USA-Cuba InfoMed lobbies Congress to adjust the limits, it's also working on a different mission: connecting Cuban doctors with educational resources in the Bay Area.

More: http://havanajournal.com/culture_comments/A1655_0_3_0_M/

 

[alexandra]

Lets also discuss the "success" of a country where it's citizens are purportedly abused, brainwashed, oppressed, and unable to even leave all owing directly to the actions and policies of the state.

TSA, your own source (Wikipedia), as well as other sources of information, points out the the last claim made above - "unable to even leave" - is false if you mean that Castro is preventing them from leaving:

In April 1980, over 10,000 Cubans stormed the Peruvian embassy in Havana seeking political asylum. In response to this, Castro allowed anyone who desired to leave the country to do so through the port of Mariel. Under the Mariel boatlift, over 125,000 Cubans migrated to the United States. Eventually the United States stopped the flow of vessels and Cuba ended the uncontrolled exodus. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

Note, it was the US government (the altruistic, pro-humanitarian and thus opposite to Castro, democratic, humane government) that stopped the flow of vessels. How intriguing...

EDIT: More relevant information from Wiki on the above point (emphasis my own):

The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 dealt Cuba a giant economic blow. This led to another unregulated exodus of asylum seekers to the United States in 1994, which was slowed to a trickle of a few thousand a year by the U.S.-Cuban accords. Now it is increasing again although at a far slower rate than before [16]. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

 

[alexandra]

An inaccuracy in Wiki:

Cuba remains one of the few countries in the world, and the only one in the Western Hemisphere, to deny the International Committee of the Red Cross access to its prisons. [30]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

Not true!

US bars access to terror suspectsThe US has admitted for the first time that it has not given the Red Cross access to all detainees in its custody.
The state department's top legal adviser, John Bellinger, made the admission but gave no details about where such prisoners were held.
Reference: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4512192.stm

Hypocrisy, no?

 

[fourier jr]

In the American lexicon, in addition to good and bad bases
and missiles, there are good and bad revolutions. The American
and French Revolutions were good. The Cuban Revolution is bad.
It must be bad because so many people have left Cuba as a result
of it.

But at least 100,000 people left the British colonies in
America during and after the American Revolution. These Tories
could not abide by the political and social changes, both actual
and feared, particularly that change which attends all
revolutions worthy of the name: Those looked down upon as
inferiors no longer know their place. (Or as the US Secretary of
State put it after the Russian Revolution: The Bolsheviks sought
"to make the ignorant and incapable mass of humanity dominant in
the earth.")

The Tories fled to Nova Scotia and Britain carrying tales of
the godless, dissolute, barbaric American revolutionaries. Those
who remained and refused to take an oath of allegiance to the new
state governments were denied virtually all civil liberties.
Many were jailed, murdered, or forced into exile. After the
American Civil War, thousands more fled to South America and
other points, again disturbed by the social upheaval. How much
more is such an exodus to be expected following the Cuban
Revolution? -- a true social revolution, giving rise to changes
much more profound than anything in the American experience. How
many more would have left the United States if 90 miles away lay
the world's wealthiest nation welcoming their residence and
promising all manner of benefits and rewards?

bill blum has written probably the definitive work on the cuban revolution, in killing hope:
http://members.aol.com/bblum6/cuba.htm

edit: here's some more, an article about cuban political prisoners... in the united states

President Bush has assured the world repeatedly that he will not heed the many calls to lift the Cuban trade embargo unless Fidel Castro releases what Washington calls "political prisoners". Bush tells us this while ten Cubans sit in US prisons, guilty essentially of not being the kind of Cubans George W. loves. If a political prisoner can be defined as one kept in custody who, if not for his or her political beliefs and/or associations would be a free person, then the ten Cubans can be regarded as political prisoners.

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/polpris.htm

 

[Art]

bill blum has written probably the definitive work on the cuban revolution, in killing hope:
http://members.aol.com/bblum6/cuba.htm
edit: here's some more, an article about cuban political prisoners... in the united states
http://members.aol.com/bblum6/polpris.htm

A good article. Makes for an interesting read. When one sees what the CIA does one wonders do they not qualify as a terrorist organisation several orders of magnitude greater than any other on the planet?

 

[Smurf]

Cuba does have a rather high prison population (compared to Europe and Canada) with a rate of .297

However this is rather small compared to the US rate of .686 (highest in the world)
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf

It seems a lot of countries that are more democratic than cuba have higher prison populations.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I don't have much time at the moment so I will just hit a few of the comments made so far. First off I should probably say that I do not agree with everything the US does and I have not at all argued that I think the US's policies in regards to Cuba are "good" or any such thing.

Pardon me, TSA - I'd like to make a slight modification to what you write here: the Net for Cuba site discusses the issue from the perspective of some Cubans - to be accurate, it discusses the issue from Cubans who are no longer living in Cuba, who are now living in Florida, in fact. They do not know what daily life in Cuba is like right now.

They are people who lived there and had a problem with the government. They are also the ones who support the individuals who want to leave, have left, and stay there trying to make a difference. The fact that they are not all there RIGHT NOW makes no difference. You've never even been to the US yet have no compunction about decrying the standard of living and state of freedom in the US to those people who actually live there.

The view of Cubans living in Cuba is as follows:

And Saddam Hussein was voted in by a 100% vote. "Votes" taken in countries where only one political party is legally allowed to exist I find a bit suspicious, sorry.

Let's talk numbers - how many 'refugees' are we talking about and, relatedly (to put it into perspective), what is the population of Cuba? From the CIA factbook, I see that the population of Cuba is numbered at approximately 11.3 million. I did a google search but can't seem to locate any figures of how many Cubans risk their lives annually to cross over to the 'paradise' of Florida.

I'll apologize here for the mistake. Cuba, in conjunction with the US, allows for a minimum of 20,000 immigrants per year on top of those who have relatives in the US already under the http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2003_CubanMigration.asp . There is an increasing demand to have the figure of 20,000 raised and the US has not done so. I'm still looking for anything on immigration from Cuba in general(not just to the US). This still shows a desire by many to leave Cuba in any event.
As for the number that leave by sea per year the number is approximately 2,000 and rising according to the wiki article.

Touche, TSA. No, I'm not saying that because they are anti-Castro, they are anti-Cuba. I am saying that anyone that is for capitalism is anti-people, so it is my particular perspective that leads me to make the statement that people who want to bring unbridled naked capitalism to Cuba (which seems to me to be what these characters want to do) are anti-people and therefore ‘anti-Cuba’.

Ah... I see. So you don't think they are anti-Cuba but anti-people. So I guess we can safely say that they are against the US and the UK and any other place where there are people? They must hate themselves too unless they aren't people.
Pro-Capitalism = Anti-People is a rather weak argument and one for one of the threads already in existence on the subject.

The key word here is 'purportedly'...

Which is why I added it. I started this thread to give you and smurf and whom ever else the opportunity to show us that Cuba isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

It seems to me one has to choose whom to believe: for every one ex-Cuban person who makes such claims, how many Cuban people do not? Note the results of the vote I mentioned above.

Very true you do have to be careful who and what you believe. You may also want to note the number of executions of persons who spoke out against the government in Cuba in the past and the persons IN Cuba who have voiced dissenting views and have been thrown in prison for it. "Ex Cubans" though they may be they are more importantly in a position to not worry about speaking their minds.
If you look at the Net For Cuba site you will find a long list of independant journalists (along side a long list of ones in prison) and a list of humanitarian organizations (all illegal by the way) who try to carry the dessenting voice. There is also that list of Cuban political prisoners who were people IN Cuba protesting the government. So we see what happens to people who express their dessenting views in Cuba and why there aren't many who do.

And if we really want to discuss Cuba and the miserable living conditions there, we'd better also have a look at the role the US has played in the embargo against Cuba.

Is there an embargo with any other country aside from the US?
I'm not here to argue US policies that I likely wouldn't agree with myself. The points I have been making so far are in regards to the oppression of the people in Cuba. I haven't touched on their economics and how well off these people are economically at all. If you want to say that Cuba only violates human rights because of the US then I don't think there is much point in carry on this discussion.

Note, it was the US government (the altruistic, pro-humanitarian and thus opposite to Castro, democratic, humane government) that stopped the flow of vessels. How intriguing...

Again I would like to point out that I have not held the US up as any sort of paragon of rightousness. Perhaps you feel making it seem so helps your argument but it really doesn't get us anywhere in our discussion.

An inaccuracy in Wiki:
Not true!
Hypocrisy, no?

What hypocracy? Do you think that Wiki is somehow a shill for the US government or something? I may be an American but I'm not trying to say that America has never done anything wrong.
I would also like to point out that there is a vast difference between the US's one exception (I am not supporting only pointing out it has only been one) versus Cuba never letting Red Cross into anyone of it's two hundred some odd prisons.
Again I would like to suggest that you not treat my points or sources as pro-america rehtoric that needs to be torn apart but actually discuss the issues. Saying "Well the US won't let the Red Cross into Gitmo" does nothing to further the discussion.

I'll need to come back to this later.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Ok, perhaps some of their grievances may be legitimate (we need to discuss this in more depth, obviously). But some initial comments/observations regarding:
* “Suppression of political freedom” ("If you're not with us, you're against us" - a quote from a world famous and the most powerful politician; quiz question: who said that?)

Political rehtoric which is more or less meaningless.
Here in the US (since you are bringing up the US president) we have more than one political party and none, as far as I know, are illegal. There's even a communist party here. There are plenty of political organizations that operate without having to be politically alligned with the current political party in office. The laws in place regarding such organizations having nothing to do with political affiliation and what party supports them but only with their activities as an organization. There are several that the president probably does not like and says things against but he has no power to illegalize or disband them just because they don't conform to his political ideology.

* "Suppression of Freedom of Speech": *cough* excuse me: from a citizen whose country lives by the Patriot Act?

You're joking I hope. Do you know how my life has changed at all since the PATRIOT Act went through? Not one iota. I have no fear what so ever that advertising a dissenting view point (some seem to think that I wouldn't but I do trust me) will land me in jail or any other such thing. When I turn on the radio I hear people discussing politics and saying what they think about the president and the republican party and even the conservatives still voice critical opinions of the admin. I can watch Bill Maher, or any other of the countless comedians, make fun of the president and the administration. Speakers and famous persons publicly condemn the admin regularly and even go so far as saying he hates black people or hates america or is a nazi. Cindy Sheehan camps out outside of the president's ranch and the White House and calls Bush a murderer.
Do you see any reason why I should think there is any lack of freedom of speech here in this country? I live here and I don't see any reason.

* General tyranny: can't comment - this is too general. Perhaps I can point to the general tyranny of life in the USA if one cannot afford health insurance, if one does not have a job, if one cannot strike for better working conditions?

I have a job that provides health insurance and it's not a high level or high paying job either. The law states that most employers must provide health insurance for most employees. If I don't have a job I find a new one. I've never had trouble with that not even in places where people complain that there aren't enough jobs. Most of the sorts of people here who can't find jobs are probably the sort that would likely wind up in UMAP labour camps and treated like the scum of the Earth if they lived in Cuba.
People here in the US DO strike for better working conditions. CUBA on the other hand is a place where workers CAN'T strike for better working conditions. In the US there are labour unions which aren't tied directly to the party in office where in Cuba there is only one labour union and it is only allowed to exist because it is alligned with the party. Personally I'd think you would be very unhappy about the idea of a labour union only being allowed to exist because it is tied to a particular political party. Aside from that here in the US if you are not satisfied with your job you can find a new one and if your employer doesn't treat you properly and provide a safe working environment there are several government agencies and non-profit organizations that you can contact to report them. There are free clinics, some run by the government and others run by non-profit organizations, for people who are poor and you're even more likely to find even more help if you happen to be female or a minority.

 

[ray b]

I live in Miami
we have about a million cubans here
with more coming every day

the rafters are now largely a myth, today most come in speed boats
run by smugglers paid huge sums by family members here
sure there were rafters but that's not how most get in NOW
that is in addition to the 20,00 legals every year

Miami is now a third world city with lowest income and highest poverty rates in the USA for a major city
pay rates are low and droping
coruption is a local sport and dead people voting is recorded in court cases

45 years of unrestricted imigration has been a disaster

the Mariel boatlift allowed castro to empty his prisons and mential wards
and dump his criminals and nuts on Miami in mass that's why it was STOPED
but Miami's murder and crime rates toped the nation for many years after the Mariel boatlift as a direct result of it

if that werenot bad enuff some of the semi-lawabideing ones are the worst rightwing fascist types who have terror bombed and killed people over minor political disputes
even in cuba at it's worst they didnot kill people for speaking out
in Miami they DO
now castro is a commie rat but the Miami cubans are as bad or worse
when it comes to free speach

weather is nice here but pairadice it ain't

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

and dump his criminals and nuts on Miami in mass that's why it was STOPED

I think that the shear numbers was the main problem. The Link I posted in an earlier post was to an immigration law site which states that only about 10% of those immigrants which came over in that exodus had criminal records or were mentaly ill. That is still a pretty decent chunk of them though.

even in cuba at it's worst they didnot kill people for speaking out

Yes they did.

 

[alexandra]

I live in Miami
we have about a million cubans here
with more coming every day
the rafters are now largely a myth, today most come in speed boats
run by smugglers paid huge sums by family members here
sure there were rafters but that's not how most get in NOW
that is in addition to the 20,00 legals every year
Miami is now a third world city with lowest income and highest poverty rates in the USA for a major city
pay rates are low and droping
coruption is a local sport and dead people voting is recorded in court cases
45 years of unrestricted imigration has been a disaster
the Mariel boatlift allowed castro to empty his prisons and mential wards
and dump his criminals and nuts on Miami in mass that's why it was STOPED
but Miami's murder and crime rates toped the nation for many years after the Mariel boatlift as a direct result of it
if that werenot bad enuff some of the semi-lawabideing ones are the worst rightwing fascist types who have terror bombed and killed people over minor political disputes
even in cuba at it's worst they didnot kill people for speaking out
in Miami they DO
now castro is a commie rat but the Miami cubans are as bad or worse
when it comes to free speach
weather is nice here but pairadice it ain't

Thank you for this interesting information, ray. I have read some of the stuff you say here elsewhere, but it is good to have it confirmed by someone living there. Bill Blum's article on Cuba that Fourier jr linked to previously on this thread discusses the ex-Cuban terrorist groups based in Miami:

Although there has always been the extreme lunatic fringe in the Cuban exile community (as opposed to the normal lunatic fringe) insisting that Washington has sold out their cause, over the years there has been only the occasional arrest and conviction of an exile for a terrorist attack in the United States, so occasional that the exiles can only assume that Washington's heart is not wholly in it. The exile groups and their key members are well known to the authorities, for the anti-Castroites have not excessively shied away from publicity. At least as late as the early 1980s, they were training openly in southern Florida and southern California; pictures of them flaunting their weapons appeared in the
press.{39} The CIA, with its countless contacts-cum-informers
amongst the exiles, could fill in many of the missing pieces for the FBI and the police, if it wished to. In 1980, in a detailed report on Cuban-exile terrorism, The Village Voice of New York reported:
Two stories were squeezed out of New York police officials ... "You know, it's funny," said one cautiously, "there have been one or two things ... but let's put it this way. You get just so far on a case and suddenly the dust is blown away. Case closed. You ask the CIA to help, and they say they aren't really interested. You get the message." Another investigator said
he was working on a narcotics case involving Cuban exiles a couple of years ago, and telephone records he obtained showed a frequently dialed number in Miami. He said he traced the number to a company called Zodiac, "which turned out to be a CIA front." He dropped his investigation.{40}
The Cuban exiles in the United States, collectively, may well
constitute the longest lasting and most prolific terrorist group in
the world. It is thus the height of irony, not to mention hypocrisy,
that for many years up to the present time in the 1990s, the State
Department has included Cuba amongst those nations that "sponsor
terrorism", not because of any terrorist acts committed by the Cuban
government, but solely because they "harbor terrorists".
More: http://members.aol.com/bblum6/cuba.htm

 

[alexandra]

It seems a lot of countries that are more democratic than cuba have higher prison populations.

It seems so, Smurf - perhaps we need to put the word 'democratic' in inverted commas, then? Or maybe we'll just have to accept that 'democratic' is an ironic word, that it does not mean what we commonly hold it to mean.

 

[alexandra]

First off I should probably say that I do not agree with everything the US does and I have not at all argued that I think the US's policies in regards to Cuba are "good" or any such thing.

Just as I thought, TSA – I credit you with an independent mind and integrity, even though we argue about so many things in our discussions. But I must add, at this point, that it is impossible to evaluate Cuba without discussing successive US administrations’ policies towards it. Discussing US policies and actions in Cuba is central to understanding how Cuba came to be what it is today; I’m sure you’ll agree as our discussion proceeds. The thing is, Cuba’s ‘socialist experiment’ was bound to be affected by these policies and actions, and we have to take this complexity into account otherwise the whole discussion is pointless.

They are people who lived there and had a problem with the government. They are also the ones who support the individuals who want to leave, have left, and stay there trying to make a difference. The fact that they are not all there RIGHT NOW makes no difference.

I immigrated from another country years ago. I can remember what it was like then, but haven’t a clue what daily life is like there now. I also hesitate to make extrapolations from my past experiences because the world has changed so much since the 1990s. Also, while I lived there I had particular prejudices which I would still hold and which would still colour my view of that society. I think the people who leave Cuba have particular prejudices too (I’m just assuming here) and that these colour their views on life in Cuba. From what I have been reading, much has changed in Cuba ever since the collapse of the ‘eastern bloc’; things have had to change, otherwise Cuba could not have survived given the continuing US-stipulated embargo against the country.

You've never even been to the US yet have no compunction about decrying the standard of living and state of freedom in the US to those people who actually live there.

True, but I speak on behalf of a particular class of people living in the US, and I assume that the people writing what I read do live there and know what they are talking about. I have tried my best to find information about daily life in Cuba written by people actually living in Cuba (rather than ex-Cubans). This has turned out to be rather problematic: a lot of information is written in Spanish, a language I do not know (my bad, not the Cubans’). So it seems if I want to research this topic properly, I will have to teach myself Spanish (a long-term project).

And Saddam Hussein was voted in by a 100% vote. "Votes" taken in countries where only one political party is legally allowed to exist I find a bit suspicious, sorry.

And yet, while by no stretch of the imagination was Saddam Hussein ‘loved’ by his people, it seems to me that many Cubans actually do admire and like their leader (but as I said, I cannot understand Spanish so the amount of information I have about this topic is limited). Here’s a thought: if Castro is so hated, how come all CIA and Miami-exile backed attempts to assassinate him have failed? The Bill Blum link points out that the reason the ‘Bay of Pigs’ attempt to overthrow Castro failed was that it depended on the people rising against him on mainland Cuba, and they didn’t: they fought for him. Just some musings…

This still shows a desire by many to leave Cuba in any event.

In context of world events: while the eastern bloc still existed, Cuba’s economy was supported. From the readings I have done, it seems that living conditions became infinitely more difficult after the collapse of the Soviet Union and its allies because of the ongoing economic blockade. It is no wonder that more Cuban people decided to leave; as ray_b points out, however, many of them didn’t actually find the ‘land of milk and honey’ they expected to in the US.

As for the number that leave by sea per year the number is approximately 2,000 and rising according to the wiki article.

But, also according to the Wiki article, rising “at a falling rate”.

Ah... I see. So you don't think they are anti-Cuba but anti-people. So I guess we can safely say that they are against the US and the UK and any other place where there are people? They must hate themselves too unless they aren't people.
Pro-Capitalism = Anti-People is a rather weak argument and one for one of the threads already in existence on the subject.

I concede that this is a weak argument. I already stated that this is based on my particular, subjective perspective, my understanding of what capitalism is. At least I admitted this

I started this thread to give you and smurf and whom ever else the opportunity to show us that Cuba isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Yes, and I was really happy to see you’d started the thread. I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss this topic at length, and I am hoping that our discussions will reveal that Cuba under Castro, and its version (stunted as it is for obvious reasons) of ‘socialism’ is not as bad as some people make it out to be.

Very true you do have to be careful who and what you believe. You may also want to note the number of executions of persons who spoke out against the government in Cuba in the past and the persons IN Cuba who have voiced dissenting views and have been thrown in prison for it. "Ex Cubans" though they may be they are more importantly in a position to not worry about speaking their minds.
If you look at the Net For Cuba site you will find a long list of independant journalists (along side a long list of ones in prison) and a list of humanitarian organizations (all illegal by the way) who try to carry the dessenting voice. There is also that list of Cuban political prisoners who were people IN Cuba protesting the government. So we see what happens to people who express their dessenting views in Cuba and why there aren't many who do.

No comment at this stage, TSA – I must research that site, much as I’m loath to. I’ll reserve this part of our discussion until I’ve looked at what they write more carefully, then.

Is there an embargo with any other country aside from the US?

Yes, as a result of pressure from the US government.

The commando raids were combined with a total US trade and credit
embargo, which continues to this day, and which genuinely hurt the
Cuban economy and chipped away at the society's standard of living.
So unyielding has the embargo been that when Cuba was hard hit by a
hurricane in October 1963, and Casa Cuba, a New York social club,
raised a large quantity of clothing for relief, the United States
refused to grant it an export license on the grounds that such shipment
was "contrary to the national interest".{14}
Moreover, pressure was brought to bear upon other countries to
conform to the embargo, and goods destined for Cuba were sabotaged:
machinery damaged, chemicals added to lubricating fluids to cause rapid
wear on diesel engines, a manufacturer in West Germany paid to produce
ball-bearings off-center, another to do the same with balanced
wheel gears -- "You're talking about big money," said a CIA
officer involved in the sabotage efforts, "when you ask a
manufacturer to go along with you on that kind of project because
he has to reset his whole mold. And he is probably going to
worry about the effect on future business. You might have to pay
him several hundred thousand dollars or more."{15}
More: http://members.aol.com/bblum6/cuba.htm

I'm not here to argue US policies that I likely wouldn't agree with myself. The points I have been making so far are in regards to the oppression of the people in Cuba. I haven't touched on their economics and how well off these people are economically at all. If you want to say that Cuba only violates human rights because of the US then I don't think there is much point in carry on this discussion.

We have to discuss US policies, else we cannot understand Cuba. It’s not fair to exempt the US government from these discussions, TSA; I hope you’ll agree, else we may as well just stop talking now.

Again I would like to point out that I have not held the US up as any sort of paragon of rightousness. Perhaps you feel making it seem so helps your argument but it really doesn't get us anywhere in our discussion.

True, TSA – I’m afraid I am not always able to eliminate the undertone of anger I feel when discussing US foreign policy. I should not let this emotional undertone cloud our discussions. I’ll try to be more dispassionate, ok?

What hypocracy? Do you think that Wiki is somehow a shill for the US government or something?

Oops, my mistake, TSA. I don’t think I communicated what I was trying to say too clearly there. I do not think that Wiki is a shill for the US government at all I linked to two different sources there and, in a spirit of indignation, pointed out that Wiki was actually wrong on this point. I said it very badly, though.

I may be an American but I'm not trying to say that America has never done anything wrong.
I would also like to point out that there is a vast difference between the US's one exception (I am not supporting only pointing out it has only been one) versus Cuba never letting Red Cross into anyone of it's two hundred some odd prisons.
Again I would like to suggest that you not treat my points or sources as pro-america rehtoric that needs to be torn apart but actually discuss the issues. Saying "Well the US won't let the Red Cross into Gitmo" does nothing to further the discussion.
I'll need to come back to this later.

As I mentioned earlier, I do not believe you are using pro-American rhetoric. I’m sorry if many of my comments have come across as if I believed this. I will try to reduce the undertones of indignation that creep into my responses in future.

 

[ray b]

a few more facts
the major source of funding to cuba is miami cubans
they hate castro but send massive amounts of cash to family members still on the island
this cash has two effects it supports cuba and is a drain on the local econ
esp when you add in all the other people from centrail and south america who are doing the same for family in their own countrys
local one way drain of many billions has a disastereus effect on miami

CIA and the worst nut rightwing cubans are a on going problem
spin offs lead to the crack cocaine explosion in the 1980's
CIA needed cash to fund the contras so they smuggled ton loads of cocaine and dumped the cocaine thru their local cuban buddys from the bay of pigs days
it was funny to watch but the nation suffered as the price of cocaine
droped from 50k to under 20k a key overnight and supplys became unlimited as suddenly every older cuban with bay of pigs / CIA connections began to try to sell the stuff
suddenly a yuppie high price drug became cheap and every where
btw this is not a legend I knew people [now dead] who fixed the CIA aircraft
and complained about the white power all over the inside and its numbing effects

in addition to the effects on the users, the local cop coruption, turf wars
and other effects were very bad and long lasting

 

[Art]

Wiki is not reliable in regard to Cuba. As shown on a previous thread some rightwing dorks were screwing around with the information on the site for fun.

 

[alexandra]

CIA and the worst nut rightwing cubans are a on going problem
spin offs lead to the crack cocaine explosion in the 1980's
CIA needed cash to fund the contras so they smuggled ton loads of cocaine and dumped the cocaine thru their local cuban buddys from the bay of pigs days
it was funny to watch but the nation suffered as the price of cocaine
droped from 50k to under 20k a key overnight and supplys became unlimited as suddenly every older cuban with bay of pigs / CIA connections began to try to sell the stuff
suddenly a yuppie high price drug became cheap and every where
btw this is not a legend I knew people [now dead] who fixed the CIA aircraft
and complained about the white power all over the inside and its numbing effects

in addition to the effects on the users, the local cop coruption, turf wars
and other effects were very bad and long lasting

This is an interesting aspect of the CIA's operations as it shows the agency's utter callousness concerning human lives. I found a 1988 PBS documentary titled "Guns, Drugs & the CIA" which looks at the CIA's involvement in international drug trafficking. This is relevant to our discussion on Cuba because it shows that criminal nature of some members of the anti-Castro lobby:

The most controversial chapter in this report focuses on connections between the CIA-backed Contras in Nicaragua and drug dealers. Ramon Milian Rodriguez, a Cuban-American convicted of laundering drug money for the Colombia drug cartel, tells how he funnelled $10 million in drug profits to the Contras. He alleges he was solicited to do so by a CIA operative claiming to report to Vice President George Bush.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/archive/

A full transcript of that program, or the online video of it, can be accessed here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/archive/gunsdrugscia.html

 

[alexandra]

Health Care in Capitalist and Socialist Systems

It may be informative to start off with some comparative health statistics. I thought comparing this information may be useful, not only in discussing Cuba but also in comparing capitalism with the Cuban version of ‘socialism’. Both sets of statistics come from the World Health Organisation.

Best Capitalist: USA
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75.0/80.0
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 67.2/71.3
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 9/7
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 139/82
Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2002): 5,274
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2002): 14.6
Figures are for 2003 unless indicated. Source: The world health report 2005
Reference: http://www.who.int/countries/usa/en/

Cuba

Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75.0/79.0
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 67.1/69.5
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 8/6
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 137/87
Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2002): 236
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2002): 7.5
Figures are for 2003 unless indicated. Source: The world health report 2005
http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/

Note the relative efficiencies of the two systems.
And now a note about priorities and altruism (which, according to some, is foreign to ‘human nature’):

Today, according to Cuban government statistics, Cuba has over 71,000 doctors [58], with 20,000 health workers in Venezuela, and 5,000 more spread around the world in over 60 additional countries, as it views such missions an important part of its foreign policy. They offer medical services to 85,154,748 people; 34,700,000 in Latin America and the Caribbean and 50,400,000 in Africa and Asia.

Cuba has sent doctors to underdeveloped nations and educated foreign doctors since the early 1960s. It dispatched physicians to help Nicaragua and Peru, then hostile to Cuba, recover from earthquakes. [59]

Cuban doctors played a vital role in the health-care system of Sri Lanka in the 1980s, particularly in the war-torn North-east province, when a crisis in that country's education system limited the number of doctors coming out of universities.

Cuba has also given treatment on the island to more than 14,000 children and 4,000 adults damaged by radiation in Chernobyl, which is actually more than the rest of the world combined has done for the victims during that catastrophe.

And during the UN's general assembly in 2000, Fidel Castro offered the United Nations 6,000 doctors for service in the third world.

"But one of Castro's most respected achievements is the establishment of a comprehensive health system producing one doctor for every 170 people, compared to 188 in the US and 250 in the UK. Teams of Cuban doctors assess applicants for eye surgery before sending patients to Havana on special flights from ten Caribbean countries and more than 15 Latin American nations. On August 20, Cuba achieved what is almost certainly a world record - performing 1,648 eye operations at 20 hospitals in a single day."

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

- and all this despite the obstacles put up against Cuba by various US administrations!
Compare the above attitudes and actions with the way in which (as posted earlier in this thread) the US actively stops US doctors from teaching Cuban doctors medical/surgical techniques and the way severe restrictions are placed on what medical computer technology can be donated to Cuba.

 

[alexandra]

Is the failure of ‘socialism’ inevitable, or is it engineered?

Thanks again for another excellent Bill Blum link, Fourier jr; he says it so clearly, doesn’t he?

I just wanted to emphasise a part of this article (though all of it is excellent) as an explanation of why the development of Cuba’s socialist project has been stunted:

And so it went ... reaching a high point in April of the following year in the infamous CIA-organized invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs. Over 100 exiles died in the attack. Close to 1,200 others were taken prisoner by the Cubans. It was later revealed that four American pilots flying for the CIA had lost their lives as well.{9}

The Bay of Pigs assault had relied heavily on the Cuban people rising up to join the invaders,{10} but this was not to be the case. As it was, the leadership and ranks of the exile forces were riddled with former supporters and henchmen of Fulgencio Batista, the dictator overthrown by Castro, and would not have been welcomed back by the Cuban people under any circumstances.

Despite the fact that the Kennedy administration was acutely embarrassed by the unmitigated defeat -- indeed, because of it -- a
campaign of smaller-scale attacks upon Cuba was initiated almost immediately, under the rubric of Operation Mongoose. Throughout
the 1960s, the Caribbean island was subjected to countless sea and air commando raids by exiles, at times accompanied by their CIA supervisors, inflicting damage upon oil refineries, chemical plants and railroad bridges, cane fields, sugar mills and sugar warehouses; infiltrating spies, saboteurs and assassins ... anything to damage the Cuban economy, promote disaffection, or make the revolution look bad ... taking the lives of Cuban
militia members and others in the process ... pirate attacks on Cuban fishing boats and merchant ships, bombardments of Soviet vessels docked in Cuba, an assault upon a Soviet army camp with 12 Russian soldiers reported wounded ... a hotel and a theatre shelled from offshore because Russians and East Europeans were supposed to be present there ...{11}
These actions were not always carried out on the direct order of the CIA or with its foreknowledge, but the Agency could hardly plead "rogue elephant". It had created Operation Mongoose headquarters in Miami that was truly a state within a city -- over, above, and outside the laws of the United States, not to mention international law, with a staff of several hundred Americans directing many more Cuban agents in just such types of actions, with a budget in excess of $50 million a year, and an arrangement with the local press to keep operations in Florida secret except when the CIA wanted something publicized.{12}

<snip>

The commando raids were combined with a total US trade and credit
embargo, which continues to this day, and which genuinely hurt the
Cuban economy and chipped away at the society's standard of living.

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/cuba.htm

This is nothing but thuggery - I have read about this before, many times, but it never ceases to infuriate me.

And read this:

What undoubtedly was an even more sensitive venture was the use of chemical and biological weapons against Cuba by the United States. It is a remarkable record.
More: http://members.aol.com/bblum6/cuba.htm

This whole article is riveting reading; like reading about some kind of nightmare, really. It is disgusting, inhuman, inexcusable – not even for profits, Messieurs Capitalists!

Note: all Blum’s statements are referenced.

More of the same:

Washington's strategy to undermine Cuba
Protect terrorists, preach human rights
By Gloria La Riva
While the Bush administration is attempting to obtain the release of four anti-Cuba terrorists from a Panamanian jail, it is at the same time trying to force through a resolution against Cuba in the upcoming UN Human Rights Commission.

Since the 1959 revolution, over 3,400 Cubans have been killed by U.S.-supported terrorism, by invasion, blockade, bombings and assassination. Cuba is the victim of human rights violations, not the perpetrator. It is the U.S. government that belongs in the dock for its countless anti-human crimes around the world.

But shame never stopped Washington from hypocritically accusing its victims of its own genocidal crimes.
More: http://www.workers.org/ww/2002/cuba0321.php

And here’s a link with more information about the Cuban political prisoners: http://www.granma.cu/miami5/ingles/index.html (if you’re interested in reading more about atrocities carried out against Cuban citizens, click on the link “Terrorism against Cuba” in the right-hand menu of this page)

 

[Smurf]

I would also like to point out that there is a vast difference between the US's one exception (I am not supporting only pointing out it has only been one) versus Cuba never letting Red Cross into anyone of it's two hundred some odd prisons.

Woah! Woah! Cuba may not let the Red Cross into all of their prisons all the time, but if you want to state that Cuba has never let the ICRC into any of their prisons you're going to have to back that up!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Woah! Woah! Cuba may not let the Red Cross into all of their prisons all the time, but if you want to state that Cuba has never let the ICRC into any of their prisons you're going to have to back that up!

It's in the Wiki article Smurf. If you dispute this then please back your dispute up.

The Commission also adopted a resolution on the situation of human rights in Cuba, by a roll-call vote of 21 in favour to 17 against, with 15 abstentions, in which it invited the Personal Representative of the High Commissioner for Human Rights to report to the Commission on the current status of the situations addressed in the resolutions of the Commission concerning the situation of human rights in Cuba.

Cuba said everyone knew that the real cause of attempts to stigmatise Cuba at the Commission was Cuba's unyielding rebelliousness against the world's imperialist unjust order and because of its unflinching defence of its independence and sovereignty. Cuba would not get tired of fighting; would not surrender; and would never make concessions.

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/01C0DBBA49D9D58BC1256FE4002A7D0C?opendocument

Cuba has consistentlt refused to let anyone from the UN Human Rights Commission visit the country for an inspection.

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/57JPJK?OpenDocument
This article discusses how the ICRC was allowed into Cuban prisons shortly before and shortly after the revolution but was denied there after. Since then the ICRC was eventually allowed back but I have found no mention of admittance to the prisons. So far though the only other trips by the ICRC to a Cuban prison I have found are for Guantanamo.
HRW are the ones that claim the ICRC has been denied access to Cuban prisons. There is however a Cuban Red Cross which keeps in contact with the ICRC and presumably investigates the prisons.

http://www.cubafreepress.org/art2/cubap000626.html
This article claims that the ICRC has not been back to Cuba since 1989.
It also points out that the UN Special Rapporteur was never allowed to visit Cuba in the time that he held this office between 1994 and 1998. Most up to date the commissioner of the UN Human Rights Commission(mentioned above) has been denied visitation to Cuba for the last two years.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Here are the reports from the UN Special Rapporteur...
http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/FramePage/Cuba En?
Since he was never allowed to visit these are the sources of information he claims...

5. Also pursuant to his mandate, the Special Rapporteur tried to obtain information from a wide variety of sources, and expressed his willingness to receive any person or group wishing to meet with him. For that purpose, and bearing in mind that most of the sources of information on the situation of human rights in Cuba are in the United States of America, he traveled to New York and Washington, D.C., from 29 August to 2 September 1994, where he had the opportunity to meet with individuals and representatives of the following organizations and groups: the Cuban Committee for Human Rights, the Committee to Support the Human Rights Movement in Cuba, the Cuban Women's Foundation, Human Rights in Cuba, Cuban Change, the Democratic Confederation of Workers, Freedom House, the Cuban Worker's Trade Union, Americas Watch, Areito Review, the Cuban-American Committee for Peace, the World Federation of Cuban Political Prisoners, the Cuban Committee against the Blockade, the Puerto Rican Group against the Blockade, the American Institute for Free Labor Development, the Foundation for the Defence of Family Values, the InterFaith Foundation for Community Organizations, the House of the Americas and the American Association of Jurists. The Special Rapporteur received written material - in addition to that received from the above-mentioned sources - from such sources as the Information Bureau of the Cuban Human Rights Movement, the Foundation for Human Rights in Cuba, the Christian Democrat Movement and Amnesty International, as well as many private communications sent to the Special Rapporteur from Cuba and abroad. The situation of human rights in Cuba reflected in this report is therefore based primarily on information from these sources.

This is a rather brief retort to the reports made by the UN Special Rapporteur...
http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/TestFrame/12810f589f192767802566630038dae7?Opendocument

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I have tried my best to find information about daily life in Cuba written by people actually living in Cuba (rather than ex-Cubans). This has turned out to be rather problematic: a lot of information is written in Spanish, a language I do not know (my bad, not the Cubans’). So it seems if I want to research this topic properly, I will have to teach myself Spanish (a long-term project).

I've had the same problem ofcourse but there are international agencies that can be used as sources. Ofcourse it is consistently claimed that these sources are manipulated and bullied by the US and so are not reliable. These sources gather information from ex-Cubans, recent "refugees", and people who are currently in Cuba.
Discussing the state of human rights in Cuba will get no where though if either side in the discussion refuses to consider information that is not "friendly" to their position. You can claim that my sources are coloured because they are anti-Cuba and I can claim that any Cuban sources are coloured by the censorship of their government. I can agree to give your sources the benefit of the doubt and actually read and consider what they have to say if you will do the same for mine and we can both consider the information based on it's own merit rather than being biased due to it's source.
If there really is an oppressed people living in Cuba just how likely do you think it is that they will have internet access and be posting about it online anyway? There is also that list of independant journalists on the Net For Cuba site but ofcourse they are anti-castro otherwise they would be working for the one (or is it two since thay have two channels?) official and legal news agency in Cuba.

We have to discuss US policies, else we cannot understand Cuba. It’s not fair to exempt the US government from these discussions, TSA; I hope you’ll agree, else we may as well just stop talking now.

I understand that US policies will effect Cuba economically and effect their standard of living. Even if there are several other countries that will do business with them, and do, the US and US shipping lanes are the closest and will undoubtedly have an effect on them. You can consider me to have utterly conceeded this point that much hardship in Cuba can easily and dirtectly be connected to US policies which have not allowed Cuba to economically "sink or swim" of it's own accord.
There are issues I have brought up though in regards to...
I'll come back to this...

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

US foreign policy for the last 50 years: 'nuff said.

In Scientific American there was an article about the "happiest" countries in the world: Ireland was top: USA was languishing in 28th place behind some 2nd world countries and most of Europe. The USA should heal itself before it attempts to heal others. England was third btw. We may moan a lot but we're happier for it

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Sorry, had to go due to work.

At any rate. I have brought up several issues of human rights violations in Cuba and have have more or less gone unanswered in their regard. Instead I have seen an onslaught of issues with regard to the US and it's policies in regards to Cuba or US policies and statistics as compared to Cuba's.
So please tell me what you think and have to say about the allegations of human rights violations in Cuba. When we have discussed socialism and communism before the issue of human rights, freedom of expression, ect. are always at the forefront. Those of us that have stated we are uneasy (or even outright against in some cases) these systems of government have always pointed out what look like obvious issues to us. Looking at Cuba which you and others seem to regard as a rather successful(barring US intervention) socialist experiment I can't help but see the same issues that are brought up time and again about socialism and communism in general.
There is only one party and all others are illegal. All agencies and organizations owe their existence to the party and are illegal if they do not agree with the aims of the party. Protesters, journalists, human rights activists, political figures, ect are arrested and jailed if they openly criticize or denounce the party. Educational and employment opportunities are dependant on your political affiliation and history. There is a class of "Party Members" who live in the lap of luxury while regular citizens stand in lines for their basic necessities in direct contradiction to the idea espoused by that same party that everyone are to be equal and receive equally.
So what do you say to all of this?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

US foreign policy for the last 50 years: 'nuff said.

So please explain to me why US foreign policy is the reason why the Cuban government oppresses it's own people.

 

[Anttech]

US foreign policy for the last 50 years: 'nuff said.
In Scientific American there was an article about the "happiest" countries in the world: Ireland was top: USA was languishing in 28th place behind some 2nd world countries and most of Europe. The USA should heal itself before it attempts to heal others. England was third btw. We may moan a lot but we're happier for it

Ireland was top lolololololololol

Must be all the trouble they have had for the past 50 years

 

[alexandra]

It's in the Wiki article Smurf. If you dispute this then please back your dispute up.

A question, TSA - Art's post in this thread pointed out that Wiki's Cuba article has been sabotaged. Does anyone know whether it was subsequently corrected, or should we ignore this article as a source altogether? I'm not trying to be troublesome here - just wondering whether anyone knows whether the information in that article is ok. Much of the basic historical information seems to be ok (ie, is verified by readings I have done from other sources) but I can't vouch for all the information.

 

[alexandra]

I've had the same problem ofcourse but there are international agencies that can be used as sources. Ofcourse it is consistently claimed that these sources are manipulated and bullied by the US and so are not reliable. These sources gather information from ex-Cubans, recent "refugees", and people who are currently in Cuba.
Discussing the state of human rights in Cuba will get no where though if either side in the discussion refuses to consider information that is not "friendly" to their position. You can claim that my sources are coloured because they are anti-Cuba and I can claim that any Cuban sources are coloured by the censorship of their government. I can agree to give your sources the benefit of the doubt and actually read and consider what they have to say if you will do the same for mine and we can both consider the information based on it's own merit rather than being biased due to it's source.

You make good points here, TSA: we will both have to read each other's material and try to judge them somehow. But I do want to make an additional point regarding the issue of 'human rights': if there were not such consistent and serious attempts to sabotage the gains of the socialist revolution (attempts by the CIA and its ex-Cuban agents, actually) perhaps there would have been no need for Castro to resort to such restrictions of freedom? This is an issue we need to develop further in our discussions - at the moment I am just suggesting it as an idea we should keep in mind. After all, the US government claims that it is as a result of the 'threat of terrorism' that they have to infringe on the basic rights set out in the US constitution and its amendments. This 'terrorist threat' is used to justify keeping political prisoners as 'illegal combatants' in Guantanamo Bay, for instance; it is used to justify infringing on privacy rights of citizens of the US (I see there's a whole other thread devoted to discussion about this topic); and it justifies the use of 'rendition' and torture. If you are willing to take the US government's excuse for such infringements on human rights as valid, why is it not valid that Castro take whatever measures he must to safeguard whatever socialism the crippled economy allows for against its very formidable enemy - the most powerful capitalist country in the world? To me this sounds like double standards.

If there really is an oppressed people living in Cuba just how likely do you think it is that they will have internet access and be posting about it online anyway? There is also that list of independant journalists on the Net For Cuba site but ofcourse they are anti-castro otherwise they would be working for the one (or is it two since thay have two channels?) official and legal news agency in Cuba.
I understand that US policies will effect Cuba economically and effect their standard of living. Even if there are several other countries that will do business with them, and do, the US and US shipping lanes are the closest and will undoubtedly have an effect on them. You can consider me to have utterly conceeded this point that much hardship in Cuba can easily and dirtectly be connected to US policies which have not allowed Cuba to economically "sink or swim" of it's own accord.
There are issues I have brought up though in regards to...
I'll come back to this...

As pointed out above, US policies surely affect not only the economics and standard of living of Cuba, but also contribute to the Castro regime's human rights infringements. But I'll continue this discussion in response to something else you posted later...

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

A question, TSA - Art's post in this thread pointed out that Wiki's Cuba article has been sabotaged. Does anyone know whether it was subsequently corrected, or should we ignore this article as a source altogether? I'm not trying to be troublesome here - just wondering whether anyone knows whether the information in that article is ok. Much of the basic historical information seems to be ok (ie, is verified by readings I have done from other sources) but I can't vouch for all the information.

Wikipedia consistently has people going over the materials, especially anything that is repeatedly revised or where people are attempting to intentionally insert erronious material. If you want you can look at the conversation over the material in the article. Also there is a link in the article to the HRW (Human Rights Watch) article that was sourced for that bit of information.

 

[alexandra]

Sorry, had to go due to work.

Work sometimes gets in the way of 'life', doesn't it Never mind, this discussion is going to take ages to unfold if we're going to do it properly, and there isn't any rush

At any rate. I have brought up several issues of human rights violations in Cuba and have have more or less gone unanswered in their regard. Instead I have seen an onslaught of issues with regard to the US and it's policies in regards to Cuba or US policies and statistics as compared to Cuba's.

As mentioned previously, TSA, I do believe that US policies have contributed to the human rights violations in Cuba. Nevertheless, I understand that I have to try to answer your questions regarding these issues. It's not as if I feel comfortable at the thought that they are occurring... one can sometimes see why something is happening and yet wish desperately that it could be otherwise...

So please tell me what you think and have to say about the allegations of human rights violations in Cuba. When we have discussed socialism and communism before the issue of human rights, freedom of expression, ect. are always at the forefront. Those of us that have stated we are uneasy (or even outright against in some cases) these systems of government have always pointed out what look like obvious issues to us. Looking at Cuba which you and others seem to regard as a rather successful(barring US intervention) socialist experiment I can't help but see the same issues that are brought up time and again about socialism and communism in general.
There is only one party and all others are illegal. All agencies and organizations owe their existence to the party and are illegal if they do not agree with the aims of the party. Protesters, journalists, human rights activists, political figures, ect are arrested and jailed if they openly criticize or denounce the party. Educational and employment opportunities are dependant on your political affiliation and history. There is a class of "Party Members" who live in the lap of luxury while regular citizens stand in lines for their basic necessities in direct contradiction to the idea espoused by that same party that everyone are to be equal and receive equally.
So what do you say to all of this?

You are right. These are generally the things that turn people against socialism and communism. To be perfectly honest, I do not have all the answers at my fingertips, but I am going to research each of the points you have brought up in the quote above and discuss them as critically as they deserve. But all the time, I'm thinking... if Cuba did not face such a formidable and unrelenting enemy, would the Castro regime be different? I request that we keep this in mind when we examine these issues.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

If you are willing to take the US government's excuse for such infringements on human rights as valid, why is it not valid that Castro take whatever measures he must to safeguard whatever socialism the crippled economy allows for against its very formidable enemy - the most powerful capitalist country in the world? To me this sounds like double standards.

I don't. How's that? I hate hypocracy and I hate double standards.
You condemn the Bush Admin for such infringements based on such reasoning so why is it that you have yet to say that you condemn these sorts of actions by Castro?

I don't care what the US does and what the CIA does, it shouldn't have any inpact on the legality of forming unions and human rights organizations among several other things.

 

[alexandra]

TSA, I am starting right now to research the Cuban political system and how elections work there. Excuse me if the research takes a while: I want to do a proper job of it:-)

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I've had the same problem ofcourse but there are international agencies that can be used as sources. Ofcourse it is consistently claimed that these sources are manipulated and bullied by the US and so are not reliable. These sources gather information from ex-Cubans, recent "refugees", and people who are currently in Cuba.
Discussing the state of human rights in Cuba will get no where though if either side in the discussion refuses to consider information that is not "friendly" to their position. You can claim that my sources are coloured because they are anti-Cuba and I can claim that any Cuban sources are coloured by the censorship of their government. I can agree to give your sources the benefit of the doubt and actually read and consider what they have to say if you will do the same for mine and we can both consider the information based on it's own merit rather than being biased due to it's source.
If there really is an oppressed people living in Cuba just how likely do you think it is that they will have internet access and be posting about it online anyway? There is also that list of independant journalists on the Net For Cuba site but ofcourse they are anti-castro otherwise they would be working for the one (or is it two since thay have two channels?) official and legal news agency in Cuba.
I understand that US policies will effect Cuba economically and effect their standard of living. Even if there are several other countries that will do business with them, and do, the US and US shipping lanes are the closest and will undoubtedly have an effect on them. You can consider me to have utterly conceeded this point that much hardship in Cuba can easily and dirtectly be connected to US policies which have not allowed Cuba to economically "sink or swim" of it's own accord.
There are issues I have brought up though in regards to...
I'll come back to this...

It was in response to this. Democracy is the best form of Gov for America, that's all I have to say I think. Trying to force your ideals on others is not very democratic, America needs to solve it's own problems before placing sanctions on countries who's ideals differ is all I meant.

Really physician heal thyself!

 

[alexandra]

I don't. How's that? I hate hypocracy and I hate double standards.
You condemn the Bush Admin for such infringements based on such reasoning so why is it that you have yet to say that you condemn these sorts of actions by Castro?

Don't be belligerent, TSA - did I say I do not condemn any human rights violations that may be occurring in Cuba? I have said nothing of the sort; in fact, I said I will research this issue, and I will. The only thing I said was that this issue is not as clear-cut as you seem to think it is, and that US and CIA policies and actions may be contributing to the restrictions of freedom in Cuba.

I don't care what the US does and what the CIA does, it shouldn't have any inpact on the legality of forming unions and human rights organizations among several other things.

So Castro should just let US and CIA agents run rampant and do what they like to him and to Cuban society? Does that really sound reasonable to you?

Do you know that Cuban workers are not allowed to form unions? I don't know this for sure... I need to do some research. I also know very little about the presence or otherwise of human rights organisations in Cuba; again, this is something I have to research.

Sorry if this sounds annoyed - we must try to keep this discussion unemotional. I'm going to do some research now.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I don't. How's that? I hate hypocracy and I hate double standards.
You condemn the Bush Admin for such infringements based on such reasoning so why is it that you have yet to say that you condemn these sorts of actions by Castro?
I don't care what the US does and what the CIA does, it shouldn't have any inpact on the legality of forming unions and human rights organizations among several other things.

I've got to say you should care what they do, because two wrongs don't make a right? I condemn bush from a purely personal view that the man is border line retarded, but hey that's just my opinion, frankly letting some bumbling idiot run your country is probably the best course of action He's kind of like the president of the universe in Douglas Adams Hitchikers guide to the galaxy: a bumbling stooge designed to take the focus off those with the real power: again IMO

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Don't be belligerent, TSA - did I say I do not condemn any human rights violations that may be occurring in Cuba?

I apologize if I come off as belligerant. You seemed to make the assumption that I agreed with the actions by the US government that you mentioned and I do not. I also know that you condemn such logic as you mentioned and that is why I asked my question. Please do note that I asked you and did not assume in my wording though I do find it strange that you seem to be using such logic as an excuse for Cuba (note in the wording "seem") when you say things like "The only thing I said was that this issue is not as clear-cut as you seem to think it is, and that US and CIA policies and actions may be contributing to the restrictions of freedom in Cuba."
Since you have yet to really elaborate much it looks like you hold a double standard, hence my question. If you could clarify I would appreciate it.

So Castro should just let US and CIA agents run rampant and do what they like to him and to Cuban society? Does that really sound reasonable to you?

I don't believe I said this. Perhaps if I clarify and say that I don't believe that US and CIA actions merit the sort of oppression that exists in Cuba. The way I worded it first may have been a bit flip but I think it was rather clear.

Do you know that Cuban workers are not allowed to form unions? I don't know this for sure... I need to do some research. I also know very little about the presence or otherwise of human rights organisations in Cuba; again, this is something I have to research.

I have posted links to material on this including reports from the UN Special Rapporteur. Also see Wiki...

Groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch also criticize the alleged censorship, the lack of press freedom in Cuba, the lack of civil rights, the outlawing of political opposition groups and unions, and the lack of what they call free and democratic elections. The government recognizes only one labor union, the Worker's Central of Cuba (Central de Trabajadores de Cuba, CTC). Independent labor unions are denied formal status and their members are harassed. Extremely effective state security with its network of informers and spies [32] continues to hold effective control. No local human rights groups enjoy legal status. Cuba remains one of the few countries in the world, and the only one in the Western Hemisphere, to deny the International Committee of the Red Cross access to its prisons. [33]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba#Human_rights

See also..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

 

[Smurf]

It's in the Wiki article Smurf. If you dispute this then please back your dispute up.

Fine. Since you don't want to back up YOUR claim I guess it's up to me to show you that you're wrong anyways.

The International Committee for the Red Cross (ICRC), which visits prisoners in custody for political and security offenses all over the world, last conductedprison visits in Cuba in 1988 and 1989

Took exactly 1 minute and 26 seconds to find that. Used google. I think even you could've done that.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Sorry why would you need unions in a marxist society anwyay, since workers control the means of production, the government and everything else in theory? Fidel Castro is not really a communist as communism has no place for a dictator. It is ruled by it's people for it's people, in it's purest form, therefore to call Cuba communist socialist or marxist is really a falacy in itself. Cuba is a dicatorship plain and simple a left wing one, yes but truly communist or socialist, don't think so.

 

[alexandra]

A question, TSA: how do you define 'democracy' and 'democratic'? This is going to be important in our discussion of Cuban political structures. Are 'multi-pary elections' a precondition (both necessary and sufficient)? Or would you accept other forms of popular participation? Is it more democratic to have a number of parties to choose from, or is it more democratic for any person to be eligible for election to positions of power? My research is really enlightening so far - I should be able to post a good response by tomorrow.

 

[alexandra]

Sorry why would you need unions in a marxist society anwyay, since workers control the means of production, the government and everything else in theory? Fidel Castro is not really a communist as communism has no place for a dictator. It is ruled by it's people for it's people, in it's purest form, therefore to call Cuba communist socialist or marxist is really a falacy in itself. Cuba is a dicatorship plain and simple a left wing one, yes but truly communist or socialist, don't think so.

Hang on, Shcrodinger's Dog (by the way, I like your name - v. amusing ) - it's more complex than that. Have a look at these links: http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html and http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=53

 

[alexandra]

So please tell me what you think and have to say about the allegations of human rights violations in Cuba. When we have discussed socialism and communism before the issue of human rights, freedom of expression, ect. are always at the forefront. Those of us that have stated we are uneasy (or even outright against in some cases) these systems of government have always pointed out what look like obvious issues to us. Looking at Cuba which you and others seem to regard as a rather successful(barring US intervention) socialist experiment I can't help but see the same issues that are brought up time and again about socialism and communism in general.

We good citizens of the 'western liberal democracies', through the mass media controlled by corporations, are subjected to a lot of propaganda. Here is my initial response to issues of 'human rights' (which, by the way, we will have to define more precisely - I would have thought they should include such things as the right to food, housing, health services and education? We'll have to determine what we all accept as a baseline definition of 'human rights') and 'freedom of expression':

Yet no evidence is given to suggest that political dissidents in Cuba are killed or tortured, as they have been (and on a large scale) by US backed regimes in Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Chile and Colombia. The simple fact is there are no “death squads” in Cuba.

Even the US State Department, in its 2004 country report - and trying its hardest to vilify Cuba - acknowledged that Cuba had, “no political killings ... no reports of politically motivated disappearances”. The US also acknowledges there were no reports of religious repression, little discrimination, compulsory and free schooling, a universal health system, substantial artistic freedom, and no reports of torture…. The State Department report did state, “prisoners [in Cuba] ... often were subjected to repeated, vigorous interrogations”. As a human rights abuse, this hardly compares with the very public tortures and murders of Iraqi prisoners by the US army.

<snip>

In its current climate of threat, Cuba has restricted opposition parties, but it is far from the “brutal dictatorship” portrayed by McGeough. I have visited the island twice. There is no general climate of fear. People speak freely, criticising their government, but criticising the US Government far more. Cubans also participate in their political system at much higher levels than do Australians.

Cuba's human rights record is remarkable - taking into account its excellent health and education systems, the care of its citizens’ basic needs, and the internationalism demonstrated through its health and education support to many other poor countries.

Unlike Australia, Cuba has never invaded another country, participated in the carpet bombing of civilians, or engaged in a worldwide torture network. There are great dangers in joining in with these new rounds of alleged “human right abuses”, levelled against “the Empire's” latest target.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3243

Note how the above article critiques Australia as well as the US in comparison to Cuba (I am not selective about which capitalist country/government I mention in my critiques!).

There is only one party and all others are illegal. All agencies and organizations owe their existence to the party and are illegal if they do not agree with the aims of the party. Protesters, journalists, human rights activists, political figures, ect are arrested and jailed if they openly criticize or denounce the party. Educational and employment opportunities are dependant on your political affiliation and history. There is a class of "Party Members" who live in the lap of luxury while regular citizens stand in lines for their basic necessities in direct contradiction to the idea espoused by that same party that everyone are to be equal and receive equally.
So what do you say to all of this?

TSA, could you provide sources for some of this information? I would be particularly interested in knowing about how educational and employment opportunities are dependant on your party affiliation (given that I have read only 10-15% of the population are party members). I would also like to see who wrote/said that there is a class of party members who live in the lap of luxury - I am aware that this was the case in the Soviet Union, but haven't read anywhere that it happens in Cuba. I'm not trying to be a pain - I just think these allegations have to be examined.

 

[Art]

When one examines Cuba's history it is clear that the original revolution did not start off as a Marxist-Leninist revolution but was actually an attempt to restore democratic rule to the country by removing General Batista who had gained power in a coup in 1952. One of the first things the rebels did was to restore the 1940 constitution, which Batista had suspended, and promise free and fair elections within 2 years. The delay was to give other parties (which had been banned under Batista) time to form and a chance to organise themselves.

Things began to go wrong very soon afterwards. Batista in return for US military and financial aid had been very generous to US business and so the country was effectively owned by corporate America. (They owned ~50% of the total assets of Cuba and employed just 1% of the work force)
These businessmen and thus their political leaders were extremely concerned about the consequences of the revolution as to how it would affect their investments.

And so the US decided on a 3-pronged approach to overthrow the new gov't.

First to finance and support anti-revolutionary propaganda to try and erode the revolution's popular support.

Second by supporting counter revolutionary groups both directly through covert CIA operations including terrorist style bombings and overtly by channelling money and weapons to anti-Castro groups in the US who staged some rather pathetic attempts to invade Cuba.

Finally they imposed stringent economic sanctions on Cuba and to make them as tough as possible leant heavily on Cuba's other trading partners to support the sanctions. eg President of Ecuador, Josh Maria Velasco Ibarra, announced the U.S. had demanded that his country break off diplomatic relations with Cuba as a condition to the approval of various loans.

Meanwhile Russia who were always keen to extend their influence came along and offered oil, loans ($100 m credit line) and trade to replace the holes in the economy created by US policy. Before agreeing to this offer Castro requested negotiations with the US gov't but was refused outright by US Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and so that is when Russia became heavily involved in the revolution.

From that point on things continued to snowball. For example Cuba's oil refinaries owned by Texaco, Esso and Shell were instructed by the US gov't not to refine the Russian oil and so Castro nationalised them which further infuriated corporate America. The US retaliated by passing the Sugar Act eliminating Cuba's sugar quota and Cuba retaliated by nationalising the rest of the US companies in it's territories and signed a deal with China to sell their sugar to them instead.

It was in fact 3 years into the revolution, by which time he was very heavily indebted to Russia and to a lesser extent China, that Castro declared he had decided to be a Marxist-Leninist. Which given the politics of his backers isn't too surprising.

Shortly after the successful revolution American journalist Walter Lippmann wrote:

"For the thing we should never do in dealing with revolutionary countries, in which the world abounds, is to push them behind an iron curtain raised by ourselves. On the contrary, even when they have been seduced and subverted and are drawn across the line, the right thing to do is to keep the way open for their return."

and in fact Kennedy finally woke up to this fact when in Nov 1963 he asked French journalist Jean Daniel to tell Castro that he is now ready to negotiate normal relations and drop the embargo. According to former Press Secretary Pierre Salinger, "

If Kennedy had lived I am confident that he would have negotiated that agreement and dropped the embargo because he was upset with the way the Soviet Union was playing a strong role in Cuba and Latin America…"

In conclusion Cuba was not so much an experiment with socialism as accidental socialism. But for the initial policies of the US gov't both Castro and Cuba might have had a very different political system today. It is also interesting that many of the human rights violations, erosions of civil liberties and indeed their totalitarian gov't many are so critical of can be traced back to being derived from emergency measures introduced to combat terrorism. Perhaps Cuba today is an indicator of where America could find itself tomorrow.

 

[alexandra]

This is a good historical summary of how Castro was forced into an alliance with the Soviet Union, Art. Che Guevara was a Marxist from early on, and Raul Castro joined the Communist Party early on, but Castro's initial aim was, as you say, more nationalistic and events forced his hand over time.

 

[alexandra]

Elections and Democracy: the Cuban Political Process

There are three levels of government in Cuba: municipal, provincial and national. I found a good summary, written in plain English, of how the electoral system works (I have bolded some statements for emphasis):

The Cuban political system is based on a foundation of local elections. Each urban neighborhood and rural village and area is organized into a "circumscription," consisting generally of 1000 to 1500 voters. The circumscription meets regularly to discuss neighborhood or village problems. Each three years, the circumscription conducts elections, in which from two to eight candidates compete. The nominees are not nominated by the Communist Party or any other organizations. The nominations are made by anyone in attendance at the meetings, which generally have a participation rate of 85% to 95%. Those nominated are candidates for office without party affiliation. They do not conduct campaigns as such. A one page biography of all the candidates is widely-distributed. The nominees are generally known by the voters, since the circumscription is generally not larger than 1500 voters. If no candidate receives 50% of the votes, a run-off election is held. Those elected serve as delegates to the Popular Councils, which are intermediary structures between the circumscription and the Municipal Assembly. Those elected also serve simultaneously as delegates to the Municipal Assembly. The delegates serve in the Popular Councils and the Municipal Assemblies on a voluntary basis without pay, above and beyond their regular employment.

The Municipal Assemblies elect the chief executives of the Municipality, who have supervision over the various ministries, such as health and education, within the Municipality. The Municipal Assemblies also elect an electoral commission, which develops a slate of candidates for the Provincial Assembly for ratification by the voters in the province. The Provincial Assemblies have responsibilities in the Province which parallel those of the Municipal Assembly in the Municipality, including electing an electoral commission which develops a slate of candidates for the National Assembly for ratification by the voters in the nation. The National Assembly is the legislative branch, and as such it makes the laws. It also elects the President of the Council of State, who appoints a cabinet and makes a government. The President of the Council of State is Fidel Castro, a position to which he has been re-elected since, I believe, 1975, when the Constitution was established.

The role of the Communist Party in the political process is very different from what I had previously thought. The Cuban Communist Party is not an electoral party. It does not nominate or support candidates for office. Nor does it make laws or select the head of state. These roles are played by the national assembly, which is elected by the people, and for which membership in the Communist Party is not required. Most members of the national, provincial, and municipal assemblies are members of the Communist Party, but many are not, and those delegates and deputies who are party members are not selected by the party but by the people in the electoral process. The party is not open to anyone to join. About fifteen percent of adults are party members. Members are selected by the party in a thorough process that includes interviews with co-workers and neighbors. Those selected are considered model citizens. They are selected because they are viewed as strong supporters of the revolution; as hard and productive workers; as people who are well-liked and respected by their co-workers and neighbors; as people who have taken leadership roles in the various mass organizations of women, students, workers, and farmers; as people who take seriously their responsibilities as spouses and parents and family members; and as people who have "moral" lives, such as avoiding excessive use of alcohol or extramarital relations that are considered scandalous. The party is viewed as the vanguard of the revolution. It makes recommendations concerning the future development of the revolution, and it criticizes tendencies it considers counterrevolutionary. It has enormous influence in Cuba, but its authority is moral, not legal. The party does not make laws or elect the president. These tasks are carried out by the National Assembly, which is elected by the people.

Prior traveling to Cuba, I had heard that the Cuban Communist Party is the only political party and that in national elections the voters are simply presented with a slate of candidates, rather than two or more candidates and/or political parties from which to choose. These two observations are correct. But taken by themselves, they give a very misleading impression. They imply that the Cuban Communist Party develops the slate, which in fact it does not do. Since the slate makers are named by those who are elected, the ratification of the slate by the voters is simply the final step in a process that begins with the voters. The reason given for using a slate rather than presenting voters with a choice at this stage was that the development of the slate ensures that all sectors (such as women, workers, farmers, students, representative of important social service agencies in the jurisdiction, etc.) are represented.
http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html

Here are some more links for those who want to find out more:
An article entitled “Five reasons why the people rule”, by academic and author Isaac Saney: http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=53 - an extract:

Cuba is almost invariably portrayed as a totalitarian regime, a veritable "gulag" guided and controlled by one man: Fidel Castro. However, this position cannot be sustained once the reality of Cuba is assessed on its own merits. Extensive democratic popular participation in decision-making is at the centre of the Cuban model of governance. More: http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=53

The five points Saney identifies are:

1. The system responds to the people’s demands.

2. The Communist Party takes no part…. it is the norm for ordinary working people to be both nominated and elected.

3. The delegates are answerable to their constituents…. Each delegate must live in the electoral district (usually comprising a maximum of two thousand people). Each municipal assembly meets four times a year and elects from its membership a president, vice president and a secretary. These are the only full-time, paid positions in Cuban local government; all other members of the municipal assemblies are unpaid and continue in the jobs they had before they were elected. Delegates have a high degree of familiarity with their constituency and are constantly on call. Every six months, there is a formal accountability session at which complaints, suggestions and other community interests (planteamientos) are raised with the delegates.

4. Consensus and unity rather than contest and division is the basis of the system.

5. Civil society is engaged in the process - the Cuba political system is augmented by a very active and vibrant civil society. A critical aspect of the Cuban political system is the integration of a variety of mass organizations into political activity. No new policy or legislation can be adopted or contemplated until the appropriate organization or association representing the sector of society that would be directly affected has been consulted. These organizations have very specific functions and responsibilities. In addition to the Communist Party, the Young Communist League and the Confederation of Cuban Workers, there are the Cuban Federation of Women, the Committees to Defend the Revolution, the National Association of Small Farmers and the Federation of University Students.
More details: http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=53

A Canadian travel site’s section entitled “Political Questions and Answers on Cuba”: http://www.canadacuba.ca/traveltips/qanda1.php - some very interesting questions asked there.

And, for those who dare – the official Cuban Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, http://www.cubaminrex.cu/English/index.asp , and an article about Democracy in Cuba (http://www.cubaminrex.cu/English/Focus_On/Democracy%20in%20Cuba.htm ) and heaps of links to articles about elections and the electoral process in action (http://www.cubaminrex.cu/English/Focus_On/Elections%20in%20Cuba.htm )

I found a lot more information, but perhaps this is enough for now?

 

[alexandra]

Popular support for Castro and socialism in Cuba

I've been researching the extent to which people support Castro and the revolution in Cuba. I have come across many comments both from Cubans as well as from people who visited Cuba and interacted with the Cuban people that indicate there is very strong support for both Castro and socialism in Cuba. For example...

In an article entitled “The Myth of Dictatorship in Cuba” (this article was also referred to in a previous posting on this thread), Professor of Sociology Charles MkKelvey writes:

I have been to Cuba four times since 1993. Last summer, I was there for ten weeks, and my activities included in-depth interviews of university professors and leaders in the Popular Councils concerning the political process in Cuba. In addition, I talked to many different people that I met informally, sometimes through families with which I was connected and other times with people I met as I traveled about Havana by myself. I do not consider myself an expert on Cuba. I would describe myself as someone who is knowledgeable about Third World national liberation movements and is in the process of learning about the Cuban case.

My general impression is that the revolutionary government enjoys a high degree of legitimacy among the people. Occasionally, I came across someone who was alienated from the system. Their disaffection was not rooted in the political system but in the economic hardships that have emerged during the "special period." The great majority seemed to support the system and seemed very well informed about the structures of the world economy and the challenges that Cuba faces. Many defended the system with great enthusiasm and strong conviction. I had expected none of this prior to my first trip, recalling my visit to Tanzania in 1982, by which time many had come to view "ujamaa socialism" as a faded dream, at least according to my impressions during my brief visit. But to my surprise, I found much support for the revolutionary project in Cuba. I could not help but contrast this to the United States, where there is widespread cynicism in regard to political and other institutions….

Cubans tend to enthusiastically defend their system. They point out that the elected members of the assemblies are not professional politicians who must rely on fund-raising to be elected, as occurs in the United States. Moreover, it avoids excessive conflict among political parties, at the expense of the common good. As my good friend Professor Guzman observed, "it is a system which avoids the absurdities and distortions of bourgeois democracy." They seem to believe in it. I think it makes sense. I also think that the political system in the United States is experiencing a legitimation crisis, so I am not inclined to recommend it to Cubans. It seems to me that they have developed a system carefully designed to ensure that wealthy individuals do not have greater voice than working class individuals, and therefore it is a system that is more advanced in protecting the political rights of citizens
http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html

Is Fidel Castro beloved, or secretly despised by the Cuban people?
Fidel Castro will go down in history as the greatest leader of the 20th century. He is loved and admired by the Cuban people because he is a true humanist, dedicated to the cause of Cuban independence. He is as much interested today in the total emancipation of his country as he ever was during the revolutionary struggle of the 1950s. http://www.canadacuba.ca/traveltips/qanda1.php

I've read more to the same effect on Discussion Boards, but I don't think it's a good idea to provide the URLs because I don't want those people harrassed and their discussions sabotaged by more right-wing elements than are already bugging them! It's so typical - there are discussion boards where people are genuinely trying to understand aspects of daily life in Cuba, and then someone with no interest at all in finding anything out comes along and posts a provocative comment (without backing it up in any way - just saying 'everyone knows things are like this') and takes the discussion completely off track (or tries to).

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Fine. Since you don't want to back up YOUR claim I guess it's up to me to show you that you're wrong anyways.
Took exactly 1 minute and 26 seconds to find that. Used google. I think even you could've done that.

Lordy Smurf. Did you not read any other part of my post?

It's in the Wiki article Smurf. If you dispute this then please back your dispute up.

The Commission also adopted a resolution on the situation of human rights in Cuba, by a roll-call vote of 21 in favour to 17 against, with 15 abstentions, in which it invited the Personal Representative of the High Commissioner for Human Rights to report to the Commission on the current status of the situations addressed in the resolutions of the Commission concerning the situation of human rights in Cuba.
Cuba said everyone knew that the real cause of attempts to stigmatise Cuba at the Commission was Cuba's unyielding rebelliousness against the world's imperialist unjust order and because of its unflinching defence of its independence and sovereignty. Cuba would not get tired of fighting; would not surrender; and would never make concessions.
http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/hurica...C?opendocument

Cuba has consistentlt refused to let anyone from the UN Human Rights Commission visit the country for an inspection.
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0...K?OpenDocument
This article discusses how the ICRC was allowed into Cuban prisons shortly before and shortly after the revolution but was denied there after. Since then the ICRC was eventually allowed back but I have found no mention of admittance to the prisons. So far though the only other trips by the ICRC to a Cuban prison I have found are for Guantanamo.
HRW are the ones that claim the ICRC has been denied access to Cuban prisons. There is however a Cuban Red Cross which keeps in contact with the ICRC and presumably investigates the prisons.
http://www.cubafreepress.org/art2/cubap000626.html
This article claims that the ICRC has not been back to Cuba since 1989.
It also points out that the UN Special Rapporteur was never allowed to visit Cuba in the time that he held this office between 1994 and 1998. Most up to date the commissioner of the UN Human Rights Commission(mentioned above) has been denied visitation to Cuba for the last two years.

I searched with Google, Wiki, and the website for the ICRC. Sorry that appears to not have been enough. Next time I correct myself I should be sure to add "I humbly beg your pardon" I suppose?

In the mean time I guess no one has anything to say about the ICRC not being allowed in Cuba since 1989 (which I did point out and source myself), or the Un Special Rapporteur not being allowed to visit, or the commissioner of the UN HRC not being allowed to visit?


I'll try to get to as much of the rest of the recent posts as possible in a bit here.