Discussing Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs)

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Jonathan
..that the Eqyptians regarded the whole constellation of Orion as sacred or something become for them the figure traced out by the stars was the Supreme God, and God of the Underworld, Osirus. (I don't think I spelled that right.)
What does 'sticky' mean?

This potential history of this on the planet is a very interesting thing to consider. Can you imagine the implications?

Sticky just means that it stays at the top of the forum. It doesn't move down with other activity like a normal thread does.

 

[Jonathan]

I don't understand, how does the Egyptians thinking of a constellation as sacred have huge historical implications?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Filer’s Files #31 -- 2003

"SIGHTINGS CONTINUE WITH CLOSE ENCOUNTERS

"The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space."

http://www.paranormalnews.com/article.asp?ArticleID=697

 

[Shadow]

..that the Eqyptians regarded the whole constellation of Orion as sacred or something become for them the figure traced out by the stars was the Supreme God, and God of the Underworld, Osirus. (I don't think I spelled that right.)

"Sticky" means the thread will be one of the top threads in this forum. Thus "sticking" to the top. Sorry, not to be mean or anything, butt I thought I would point out that Osirus was not the Egyptian God of the Underworld. Set was their God of Evil and Anubis was teh God of the Dead. They didnt exactly have a defined god of the underworld unlike the Greeks. (Hades was the Greek god of the underworld)

 

[Jonathan]

I wasn't trying to be that specific. They had like ten thousand gods, who really cares which god they identified Orion to be?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Re-posted from "Seek UFO Enlightenment"

Ivan,

I used to wonder a lot why the
media didn't discuss cattle
mutilations more often, rather
than, say mad cow disease.

After thinking about this a long
time what I came up with was that
people don't like to think too
long about something that has no
answer or conclusion (especially
if it's weird)

UFO's are much the same. You fol-
low the subject for a while and
find no real answers.Finally you
say to heck with it. Ignoring
UFO's has more to do with this
lack of answers than predjudice
about stuff outside the norm.

When Orson Wells presented an
invasion from Mars as fact on the
radio it was taken very seriously
by a lot of people without ques-
tion.

Even though there are many compel-
ling stories they defy sorting
and collating into a coherent
picture.

-Zooby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree. I have been through a UFO phase at least three times in my life. With each phase I learned more about the subject, but then what are we to do; sit and wait for ET to land? However, this is the main point for me: We could do more. I feel that whatever the explanation this is [should be] a subject of science. I know that some of the UFO stories are true. I just don't know if we can account for all of them in any reasonable way without invoking the name of ET. Note however my signature says "Be Challenged", not "Be Convinced".

If this is all true then I consider my efforts a consciousness raising activity. If it’s not true, then I am simply exploring a genuine mystery.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan,

If someone donated 80 billion
dollars to created the UFO Inves-
tigation Foundation, what would
they do that isn't already being
done?

No one knows when the sightings
are going to take place or where.

In other words, how can it be
made a subject of science?

-zoob

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

If someone donated 80 billion
dollars to created the UFO Inves-
tigation Foundation, what would
they do that isn't already being
done?

No one knows when the sightings
are going to take place or where.

In other words, how can it be
made a subject of science?

-zoob

First, I would like to see the recognition that a mystery does exist. Due to all the hype and new age mysticism, a genuine mystery is lost in the fray. Most scientists that I have encounter - and bridged the subject with - know virtually nothing about the UFO phenomenon except for what they have seen in the grocery store papers. Also, investigating UFOs can ruin a career. Why do you think I remain anonymous here? Do you think I dare broach this subject with my customers? Heck no is the correct answer. I would be out of business. Does this sound like an objective attitude?

Then we have the issue of monitoring. I can think of a few things that could be done to better watch active areas. There are also active UFO areas that only require the effort to go and see for oneself; but how many do? Almost none. Is this objectivity? Next, we have materials that defy explanation. Is this information found in the science journals? How many UFO articles have you seen in the science lit? Have you checked the Napster? Many well penned articles can be found there. Recently, due to pressure from people like Prof Sturrock from Stanford, Nature has finally agreed in principle to publish well written UFO papers. This would be a first.

UFOs are pseudoscience by arbitrary definition only. Although I greatly appreciate this opportunity to post information and to make my arguments – I offer my most sincere thanks to Greg, Sting, and PF in general – I feel that UFOs should be a subject in the “real” science forum. However, considering the common attitude towards this subject, I am grateful for what I can get.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan,

What I percieve myself to be hear-
ing from you is that you would
first and formost like to have it
considered a respectable topic
of speculation among scientists.
Then you wouldn't feel you had to
be cautious about who you mention
it to.

I'm trying to imagine a group of
astronauts, airline pilots, mil-
itary pilots, and the like going
on TV discussing their encounters
such that everyone in the country
started taking it all very seriously. I think it would just
end up disturbing people, making
people uneasy.

Unless you have something definite
to tell people, conclusive things
it may just be a burden of distr-
action for them.

-zoob

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

What I percieve myself to be hear-
ing from you is that you would
first and formost like to have it
considered a respectable topic
of speculation among scientists.
Then you wouldn't feel you had to
be cautious about who you mention
it to.

I'm trying to imagine a group of
astronauts, airline pilots, mil-
itary pilots, and the like going
on TV discussing their encounters
such that everyone in the country
started taking it all very seriously. I think it would just
end up disturbing people, making
people uneasy.

Unless you have something definite
to tell people, conclusive things
it may just be a burden of distr-
action for them.

-zoob

Let me ask you the question that I have long asked myself: If ET is here, are we better off not knowing what's really going on?

It has been suggested: If the gov knows about ET, perhaps it is denied for good reasons. The woman who authored the definitive book on the Bentwaters incident [England] recently and publicly claimed to have had a conversation with Margaret Thatcher. In regard to the subject of UFOs, she quotes Thatcher as saying: "You have to have the facts. The people cannot be told". If true, this is disturbing. Still, my take is [has been] that no one knows what's really going on. Personally, I want to know the truth no matter what it may be. If our hypothetical visitors wished us harm, they surely could have done so by now. So, I guess that my feeling is that I don't give the government permission to hide this information.

Edited.

 

[Zantra]

And the question is WHY don't they know? First off, it stands to reason assuming that the roswell crash did happen, and things progressed from there, that some element of it would have leaked out by now. Plus, we'd now have the technology to detect spacecraft more accurately, and certainly we would have gleened something of their technology by now.

I mean, other than an x-files scenario where we are being invaded, I don't see the need for keeping this a secret so long. The public could have been slowly brought to full awareness by now if this was the case.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
And the question is WHY don't they know? First off, it stands to reason assuming that the roswell crash did happen, and things progressed from there, that some element of it would have leaked out by now. Plus, we'd now have the technology to detect spacecraft more accurately, and certainly we would have gleened something of their technology by now.

I mean, other than an x-files scenario where we are being invaded, I don't see the need for keeping this a secret so long. The public could have been slowly brought to full awareness by now if this was the case.

Go to the Napster video section and see the interview with Col. Corso. [I made a notation next to the link. See page 2 of the Napster]. I know that it has been established that Corso worked in intelligence. Not only his credentials, but also many pictures are found of him with the President; and with other high ranking officials. He tells quite a story. [I have not come to any conclusion on this point.] He implores the gov to come clean and tell the public. This tape was made just before his death. Since he knew he was dying, one might consider this death bed testimony.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

What I percieve myself to be hear-
ing from you is that you would
first and formost like to have it
considered a respectable topic
of speculation among scientists.
Then you wouldn't feel you had to
be cautious about who you mention
it to.

I think the reason that my motives are not obvious is that you don't perceive this question [UFOs = ET?] as potentially true. If for one moment one ponders the significance of such a truth, then any arguments for self seeking satisfaction fail miserably. This would be perhaps the single greatest consciousness raising event in recorded history. The implications for religion, all sciences, and for our world view are no less than staggering in every imaginable way. To view this question as being any less significant is to betray a closed mind.

 

[Zantra]

One of the videos - a news report on UFOs- Dr Greer presents a plausible theory. If namely, a new source of energy that would make current fossil fuels obsolete, thereby impacting the economy at the multi-trillion dollar level. Also, it would stand to reason that initially it was kept secret for fear of other countries getting their hands on the technology.

I don't know it seems all too possible with so many credible witnesses-not just jim bob down on the idaho farm who claims he was abducted by elvis, but military personell, high ranking officials, and people who just wouldn't make this stuff up.

But even if they do exist, the government will not release the information any time in the near future. If the secret has been kept this long, there's no telling how long they could conceal it, barring them landing outside a burger king to "have it their way"

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
One of the videos - a news report on UFOs- Dr Greer presents a plausible theory. If namely, a new source of energy that would make current fossil fuels obsolete, thereby impacting the economy at the multi-trillion dollar level. Also, it would stand to reason that initially it was kept secret for fear of other countries getting their hands on the technology.

I don't know it seems all too possible with so many credible witnesses-not just jim bob down on the idaho farm who claims he was abducted by elvis, but military personell, high ranking officials, and people who just wouldn't make this stuff up.

But even if they do exist, the government will not release the information any time in the near future. If the secret has been kept this long, there's no telling how long they could conceal it, barring them landing outside a burger king to "have it their way"

Greer has done some big work. He has assembled a highly reputable group of compelling witnesses that go "on the record". They now pursue the legal argument that they are not bound by their privacy oaths [edit: I meant secrecy oaths] because the UFO information is controlled by an illegal entity of the government; therefore their oaths are null and void. Interesting.

However, Greer now scares me. I think he has become so embedded in the possibilities that he has completely lost perspective. Of course, it is possible that we lack perspective...

 

[Zantra]

Well I've read the position of cseti- If everything they are alledging is accurate, he's not overstating it at all. I'll admit this has grabbed my attention. they're alleging that z-point engery is a reality. And this is something that the scientific community has already speculated on.

The only way to expose these things, if they are true, is an executive order from the president of full disclosure. I mean, If I were the president, and information was being witheld from me, I'd use every resource available to me to obtain that information. If the government as a whole were to take this seriously, it certainly could not resist exposure, but obviously that hasn't happened yet through half dozen presidents, so who knows?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
Well I've read the position of cseti- If everything they are alledging is accurate, he's not overstating it at all. I'll admit this has grabbed my attention. they're alleging that z-point engery is a reality. And this is something that the scientific community has already speculated on.

The only way to expose these things, if they are true, is an executive order from the president of full disclosure. I mean, If I were the president, and information was being witheld from me, I'd use every resource available to me to obtain that information. If the government as a whole were to take this seriously, it certainly could not resist exposure, but obviously that hasn't happened yet through half dozen presidents, so who knows?

The basis for the legal argument is that US Presidents have been kept out of the loop.

 

[Zantra]

So you're telling me none of the successive presidents ever would have had the insight simply ask the right people "do these places exist?" or question it? I mean MJIC and other related info like area 57 are public knowledge. Surely he has the authority to simply say "take me to the base"? Or maybe not? I don't know...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan,

In response to this:

"I think the reason that my motives are not obvious is that you don't perceive this question [UFOs = ET?] as potentially true."

You are essentially correct. It is
true that I leave the door open a
small crack for the possibility
that beings from another planet
are behind all this, but for the most part I find that this particular explanation has it's
basis in fiction. That is: the
wide spread notion of life on
other planets has its origin in
H.G.Wells' The War Of The Worlds.
That book, in turn, was based on
the speculation about life on
Mars after the discovery of the
Martian "Canals". In other words:
the fiction came first and then
people started trying to fit the
host of inexplicable occurances
into the fictional model.
Before ET it was "The Wee Folk"
of the British Isles. Almost every
Native American tribe has lore
about a race of Liliputian peoples
who are generally invisible or live in small tunnels. The Mexi-
cans today still have the legend
of the Duendes- dwarfish beings
who prey upon people out alone in
isolated areas.
Now, if President Bush went on
TV tomorrow and announced that all
the coverups were at an end and
that the governent was !00% sure
earth was being visited by crafts
from another planet, but that we
didn't know why, where they were
from, or anything else about them,
I do not believe this would have
the exhilarating, mind expanding
effect on the general population
you think it would.
You have to detach from your own
reaction and think realistically
how this would effect people who
have totally different lives and
concerns than you. You cannot throw a monkey wrench into peoples
sence of reality without some very
bad consequences. Again, I remind
you of Orson Wells' mistake in this regard.
You, as one individual, may be
able to handle the truth, and want
it to be revealed to you, but the
governments job is to look after
the welfare of the greatest num-
ber.
-zoob

 

[Zantra]

Well I think I've just been sucked in.

I've just finished watching the congressional hearing dubbed "project full disclosure", and I can say it's the most convincing evidence I've ever heard. I began watching the video with a 20 percent belief in this, and have come away with a 90 percent belief.

The testimony given by top military personnel, people attached to the government with documented proof, many of whom have top secret clearance and above. These are not like the stories I've seen, these are credible people. The main question is why isn't this being made more public? is it just being written off as more UFO "bunk?" Has the media bothered to investigate these allegations. I remember reading about carter being blocked from UFO info disclosure years ago. This isn't some bumpkin hayseed in a cornfield going "welp, dem's not from here", this is very convincing. It's virtually impossible to be skeptical in the face of such evidence. Has anyone else seen this video I'm talking about ? what is your take on it? Zero point energy? Mach 20? Faster than light speed? I mean, I'm skeptical by nature, but this doesn't seem so easy to explain away. And you can't just offhandedly discredit some of the people on that list.

Comon skeptics-watch the video and I would like to hear your view on it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
So you're telling me none of the successive presidents ever would have had the insight simply ask the right people "do these places exist?" or question it? I mean MJIC and other related info like area 57 are public knowledge. Surely he has the authority to simply say "take me to the base"? Or maybe not? I don't know...

Greer and his people [some of which were high ranking authorities themselves] claim that certain presidents are denied access - Carter and Clinton most recently. I guess that one can only ask for what is known to exist.

 

[Zantra]

Well the way it was presented by greer wasn't that they were told it doesn't exist-exclusive of UFO's, black budget projects do exist. They were simply told that they were not allowed access to it.

And if something doesn't exist, then you have nothing to hide, and nothing to deny access to. They are prepsing that Carter was going to reveal the truth the American people.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

In response to this:

"I think the reason that my motives are not obvious is that you don't perceive this question [UFOs = ET?] as potentially true."

You are essentially correct. It is
true that I leave the door open a
small crack for the possibility
that beings from another planet
are behind all this, but for the most part I find that this particular explanation has it's
basis in fiction. That is: the
wide spread notion of life on
other planets has its origin in
H.G.Wells' The War Of The Worlds.
That book, in turn, was based on
the speculation about life on
Mars after the discovery of the
Martian "Canals". In other words:
the fiction came first and then
people started trying to fit the
host of inexplicable occurances
into the fictional model.
Before ET it was "The Wee Folk"
of the British Isles. Almost every
Native American tribe has lore
about a race of Liliputian peoples
who are generally invisible or live in small tunnels. The Mexi-
cans today still have the legend
of the Duendes- dwarfish beings
who prey upon people out alone in
isolated areas.
Now, if President Bush went on
TV tomorrow and announced that all
the coverups were at an end and
that the governent was !00% sure
earth was being visited by crafts
from another planet, but that we
didn't know why, where they were
from, or anything else about them,
I do not believe this would have
the exhilarating, mind expanding
effect on the general population
you think it would.
You have to detach from your own
reaction and think realistically
how this would effect people who
have totally different lives and
concerns than you. You cannot throw a monkey wrench into peoples
sence of reality without some very
bad consequences. Again, I remind
you of Orson Wells' mistake in this regard.
You, as one individual, may be
able to handle the truth, and want
it to be revealed to you, but the
governments job is to look after
the welfare of the greatest num-
ber.
-zoob

I think you make some good points; so let me beat you up a bit and then I will concede to another good point that you make. First, you need to understand that I don't believe ET is visiting - but I must admit that I think this is highly likely...even all but certain. I suspect that nearly anyone else in my shoes would be a complete believer by now. I desperately hold on to skepticism out of principle; I have to or I will just fade into the woodwork as another true believer.

I want the truth; not any particular answer. However, I really believe that if anyone reviews the links that I have posted in the Napster, in their entirety, and they then review the related links, they would be hard pressed to maintain a skeptical position. In my experience, with only a handful of exceptions, the only people who think this is all hogwash are those who have not seen a full accounting of the evidence. I can say this with a high degree of confidence since after 15 years of study; I can easily dismiss most objections without ever thinking hard. My personal opinion on all of this is based on the government docs posted in the Napster, and on other evidence that I find to be virtually indisputable. As a judge once commented after considering the evidence for ET: “If this were a murder trial there would have been a hanging long ago.”

As far as your historical example of the little people and such – this could just as easily be interpreted as cases of mistaken identity. The arguments that similar legends exist across cultures only serve to argue that ET has been here for a very long time.

As to whether or not this potential reality should be explored, this is more difficult for me to answer. I agree with you that this could be dangerous. I tend towards this position: First, I think you are wrong. The first time that we know as a planet that we are not alone, the human race will be changed forever…unless this knowledge is somehow [once again] lost. This point has been made before – by Carl Sagan for example. I can also argue this based on the influence that physics has had on religion, philosophy, and our world views in general. This however is another discussion entirely, so I will leave this there for now.

Next, what about ET could be worse than the concept of Satan and hell? How disturbing is it for a 10 year old to be told that he could end up burning in hell for all of eternity? What about ET could be worse than what we do to each other? I would rather be taken hostage by ET than hostile humans. Human beings do everything imaginable and the unimaginable to each other. I just don’t see what new aspect of fear ET would bring to the mix. Burglars can come into your home at night; I would take ET over a burglar any time. At least ET puts you back to bed when he’s done!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
Well the way it was presented by greer wasn't that they were told it doesn't exist-exclusive of UFO's, black budget projects do exist. They were simply told that they were not allowed access to it.

And if something doesn't exist, then you have nothing to hide, and nothing to deny access to. They are prepsing that Carter was going to reveal the truth the American people.

Zantra, I buried the CSETI link a bit. Do you think I should highlight this link? This stuff is so direct that I thought that people may not give this a chance.

Also, if this got you worked up, read the rest of the Napster links. I don't know how much of this stuff you have seen before, but you have only touched the surface of what hooked me. Watch the video of Corso and Gordon Cooper. Cooper say point blank that he saw a UFO [disc] land at Edwards AFB. He says that aliens then get out and did something around the craft, and when jeeps approached with cameras rolling, the aliens got back into the craft and took off. Cooper was in charge of test flights at the time.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
Comon skeptics-watch the video and I would like to hear your view on it.

Boy do I know how you feel...hence the Napster. Watch out though; your conviction will not translate to others. It will create walls...even with family members.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan,

I read it over three times and
couldn't find the concessions.

-zoob

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

I read it over three times and
couldn't find the concessions.

-zoob

I was speaking to this idea:

You cannot throw a monkey wrench into peoples
sence of reality without some very
bad consequences.

I acknowledge your concerns here:

As to whether or not this potential reality should be explored, this is more difficult for me to answer. I agree with you that this could be dangerous

Then I present an alternative point of view for consideration.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
...concessions.

-zoob

A few other things to consider; an entire catalog of high ranking military officials, now retired, have gone public with personal knowledge of UFOs. Nearly all of the people who were allegedly closest to this phenomenon encourage public disclosure. What's more, Corso argues that this information is not in the best hands. Greer and his group pursue the legal argument that this issue, and the way that it has been managed, qualify as a failure of constitutional law.

Finally, it is claimed that something like 55-65% of all Americans already believe that UFOs = ET. I wonder what the real number is for physicists….

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
These are not like the stories I've seen, these are credible people.

The main question is why isn't this being made more public? is it just being written off as more UFO "bunk?"

Has the media bothered to investigate these allegations.[?]

This isn't some bumpkin hayseed in a cornfield going "welp, dem's not from here",

this is very convincing.

It's virtually impossible to be skeptical in the face of such evidence.

Has anyone else seen this video I'm talking about ? what is your take on it?

And you can't just offhandedly discredit some of the people on that list.

Comon skeptics-watch the video and I would like to hear your view on it.

frustrating isn't it.

 

[Zantra]

When you bring up high ranking military officers with long distinguished careers in the military, with above top secret clearance,and harvard lawyer, who actually have physical evidence.. I mean cmon people. You waiting for mr alien to bring over a pie and play some poker?

These are not "UFO hunters" or typical "conspiracy theorists". These are obviously highly intelligent people, some of whom are only recently retired from the military.

I mentioned this to my fiancee. And she's as skeptical as anyone. Then I made her watch the video. By the time she finished, she was practically convinced.

I think the problem is that people 1.are in denial- it would have such wide ramifications on religion, and our place in the universe, not to mention the social and economic implications, that many people would refuse to accept it if they landed and started talking to us.
2. Have been trained for so long to believe that aliens and ufo's are just a hoax, that they refuse to look at any evidence as credible because the government and "UFO wackos" have jaded everyone.