B Do forces of attraction really exist or are they just an illusion?

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    Attraction Forces
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The discussion centers on the existence of forces of attraction, particularly in a vacuum, with participants questioning whether such forces are real or merely illusions. Gravity is acknowledged as an always-attractive force, while electrostatic and magnetic forces can vary based on conditions. Some argue that attraction occurs through field interactions rather than direct forces between objects. The conversation highlights a skepticism about the logic of attraction across a vacuum, prompting requests for detailed explanations of how these forces operate. Ultimately, the dialogue reflects a mix of curiosity and confusion regarding the nature of physical forces in the universe.
lordoftheselands
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I wonder if forces of attraction really exist. Can two things separated by vacuum get attracted?

It seems impossible.
 
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Get a couple of magnets and hold them near each other. If they fight to separate reverse one magnet and try again. You'll be able to feel the attracting forces yourself.
 
lordoftheselands said:
I wonder if forces of attraction really exist. Can two things separated by vacuum get attracted?

It seems impossible.
Ibix said:
Get a couple of magnets and hold them near each other. If they fight to separate reverse one magnet and try again. You'll be able to feel the attracting forces yourself.
But be sure to hold your breath, so you're in a vacuum... :wink:

Then there is also this use case...

1652733434753.png

https://www.space.com/35526-solar-system-formation.html
 
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Gravity is always attractive. Electrostatic forces are attractive between opposite charges. Magnetic forces can be attractive or not depending on directions and polarities. The nuclear forces probably don’t count as being transmitted through vacuum.
 
berkeman said:
But be sure to hold your breath, so you're in a vacuum... :wink:
Ah yes - I was going to ask @lordoftheselands why he thought vacuum was relevant, but got distracted and forgot.
Dale said:
Gravity is always attractive.
...but, one could argue, not a force. I'm guessing that's the fact behind the "illusion" wording in the OP.
 
lordoftheselands said:
I wonder if forces of attraction really exist.
This is a very ambiguous question. WHAT forces, specifically?
 
phinds said:
This is a very ambiguous question. WHAT forces, specifically?

Any force, it seems magic when it comes to someone telling me that two objects separated by vacuum can attract each other. It seems illogical to me. I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work, they all seem like illusions to me.
 
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phinds said:
This is a very ambiguous question. WHAT forces, specifically?
My answer would be that there are no forces between objects separated in a vacuum. Only interactions between the field an object is immersed in and the object. It looks a lot like two objects attract each other in certain cases but it is really the fields of each interacting with the other object not the objects directly or even simultaneously.
 
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lordoftheselands said:
Any force, it seems magic when it comes to someone telling me that two objects separated by vacuum can attract each other. It seems illogical to me. I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work, they all seem like illusions to me.
It seems like the <anything> propagating through a vacuum is your sticking point, correct? Do you acknowledge that we see light from the Sun that propagates through the vacuum of space? Do you acknowledge that gravitational forces hold our Solar System together through the vacuum of space?
 
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lordoftheselands said:
Any force, it seems magic when it comes to someone telling me that two objects separated by vacuum can attract each other. It seems illogical to me. I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work, they all seem like illusions to me.
You sound like someone from the twelfth century!
 
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There was a very relevant comment on a previous thread of yours.

Orodruin said:
Put in another way, you can imagine anything you like, but the Universe is not under any obligation to work according to your imagination.
 
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lordoftheselands said:
Any force, it seems magic when it comes to someone telling me that two objects separated by vacuum can attract each other. It seems illogical to me. I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work, they all seem like illusions to me.
”It seems magic” is not an argument. It is a personal opinion, and on a science forum it is a very poorly phrased opinion.

Is the concern about the “attract each other” part of your question or is it about the “separated by vacuum” part?
 
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berkeman said:
But be sure to hold your breath, so you're in a vacuum... :wink:
Ibix said:
Ah yes - I was going to ask @lordoftheselands why he thought vacuum was relevant, but got distracted and forgot.
When I hold my breath for too long, I kind of forget things too. Maybe that's @lordoftheselands issue as well...
 
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lordoftheselands said:
Any force, it seems magic when it comes to someone telling me that two objects separated by vacuum can attract each other. It seems illogical to me. I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work, they all seem like illusions to me.
Feynman talks about this with magnets which you may find interesting.

 
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lordoftheselands said:
... two objects separated by vacuum can attract each other. It seems illogical to me.
At the risk of inviting a personal theory, is there something about adding - say, some air - between those two objects that makes it more logical to you? Are you thinking that there needs to be air between some atoms for those atoms to be attracted to each other?
lordoftheselands said:
I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work...
Certainly! What is your school math level (grade school? high school? ) and your preferred reading platform? (Paper? eBook?)
 
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lordoftheselands said:
Any force, it seems magic when it comes to someone telling me that two objects separated by vacuum can attract each other. It seems illogical to me. I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work, they all seem like illusions to me.
It may be useful to explain what is your recipe to decide if something is an illusion or not. You know that your existence may be an illusion too for me. How do I know that you really asked this question? It seems illogical to me that someone asks questions even though I cannot hear them. I need to make sure that you really exist otherwise it will be like talking to myslef. How do YOU know that everything around you exists and is not just an illusion? Your senses may be deceiving you, they may all be illusions. Where do you draw the line? Logic does not help.
 
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lordoftheselands said:
It seems illogical to me. I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work, they all seem like illusions to me.
Certainly. Here you go: University Physics with Modern Physics 15th Edition
Also: University of Arizona Application Page. You should be able to apply for the physics program from here. I believe they also have an online program, but I didn't care enough to check.

A thorough working through of the above textbook should give you a good understanding of all the details of how forces work in various circumstances, and a few years of physics undergrad education should really reinforce it.

I'm sure this isn't what you wanted, but as you've shown virtually no interest in your other threads in actually learning from what anyone has said I'm not going to spend the time and energy typing up explanations that you probably won't pay attention to.
 
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lordoftheselands said:
Any force, it seems magic when it comes to someone telling me that two objects separated by vacuum can attract each other. It seems illogical to me. I would like to have an explanation in details about how exactly forces of attraction work, they all seem like illusions to me.
Gravitation depends on mass. There is nothing illusory about mass since it is a physical quantity. This can be visualized by the object bending the space around it so that other objects "fall" into it.

1652962801670.png
 
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osilmag said:
Gravitation depends on mass. There is nothing illusory about mass since it is a physical quantity. This can be visualized by the object bending the space around it so that other objects "fall" into it.

View attachment 301636
Is that falling under the force of gravity?
 
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PeroK said:
Is that falling under the force of gravity?
That's why I put it in quotations. Perhaps I could have worded it better.
 

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