Do you feel proud to your contry?

[Smurf]

As for, "Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,", I'm quite familiar with that poem, and I don't see that it offers any translation whatsoever; it appears in its original Latin,
"The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. "

I've analyzed that poem in 3 different English classes (different schools), 2 British and one Canadian and each time they taught me that the proper translation was 'Sweet and Glorious'. This is what I was referring to; there seems to be some consensus among the education system(s) that that is the proper translation. I'm not sure how this came about.

 

[loseyourname]

the word patriotic comes from latin patria; meaning 'country' and is (i believe) non gender-specific

The Latin "Patria" is derived from the Greek "Patros," which means father. Heck, the Latin for father is "Pater." Why do you think they have the same root?

 

[Grotesque Puppet]

I'm proud of my country for choosing peace over war.

 

[yu_wing_sin]

I'm very glad I was born in Sweden, but I can not say that I'm proud of that, I just happened to be very lucky.

Since I'm not the one who "built" Sweden, I cannot say I'm more proud of "my" country than I am proud of for example Norway or Australia.

"Patriotism" is probably the uggliest word ever.

Haha, every one has their value view, there is no absolute stand in this point. But China gov encourages and stresses patriotism education, the proud to contry is very important point, it can increase the nations to contry's attributive feeling, I also agree to it, this is the heavy direction to protect the regime of government. Marx he thought, the excessive freedom to people, is not absolute good, people can take the advantage of this to disturb the government's rule, and may cause breakdown of regime. So the medium freedom for people is suitable. Now China gov has enlightened, she is gradually openning in ruling.

 

[EL]

Haha, every one has their value view, there is no absolute stand in this point. But China gov encourages and stresses patriotism education, the proud to contry is very important point, it can increase the nations to contry's attributive feeling, I also agree to it, this is the heavy direction to protect the regime of government. Marx he thought, the excessive freedom to people, is not absolute good, people can take the advantage of this to disturb the government's rule, and may cause breakdown of regime. So the medium freedom for people is suitable. Now China gov has enlightened, she is gradually openning in ruling.

Yes, patriotism is a way for governments to keep their citizens calm. In patriotic countries the government seems free to do almost anything, since if anyone is against it they will be seen as traitors. This is really absurd.
It seems like the better country to live in, the less patriotic the people is. Probably because the government need not have to spread patriotic thoughts in order to remain.
So, in my opinion, patriotism is a huge sign that something is really wrong.

I can not see why one should feel proud of a country just because one happens to be born on a certain side of an imaginary line.

 

[brewnog]

I am proud to be Welsh and no we haven`t made any great significant contribution to world cuisine

Bill Bailey does a good sketch on that. "Welsh national dish? Cheese on toast! It's no bother, see?"

"Ambassadorial reception? I'll put the grill on!"

 

[zanazzi78]

Bill Bailey does a good sketch on that. "Welsh national dish? Cheese on toast! It's no bother, see?"

"Ambassadorial reception? I'll put the grill on!"

Actually its cheese and spring onion on toast! and called Welsh rarebit!

 

[Smurf]

rarebit? what's rare about it? or, better question, are you sure there's no other 'bits' in it?

 

[arildno]

Are you out of your TREE? Yorkshire pudding is BEAUTIFUL! And Worcestershire sauce is pretty good too, best on cheese on toast. Fish & Chips are nothing without heaps of salt and vinegar, and mushy peas help too. And Guinness... mmmmmmmmmmm!

Yomamma; Black Pudding is a dubious one. I'm proud that our country could come up with something so vile which tastes so nice, but it's easy to see where the lack of appeal originates.

I register you did not contradict me on the C P-B issue..

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I don't think nationalism is a good thing, but do like different cultures. I've been impressed by how polite our neighbours have been, popping into congratulate us whenever our teams have done well, as if we had something to do with it. This week we've been reciprocating!

2 runs baby, 2 runs!

Well played!

 

[rachmaninoff]

The Latin "Patria" is derived from the Greek "Patros," which means father. Heck, the Latin for father is "Pater." Why do you think they have the same root?

The genitive of 'pater' is 'patris', so the stem from which all other forms derive is patr-. I'm not sure which Latin word came first, but it seems clear they both derive from the same root, which you point out also existed in Greek.

 

[russ_watters]

That's a pretty twisted view of patriotism, El. Specifically,

It seems like the better country to live in, the less patriotic the people is.

That's self-contradictory. The "better" a country is to live in, the more the citizens will enjoy living there. Patriotism comes from the citizens, it is not imposed on them by the government.

And regarding dissent - the US is the originator of the idea that dissent itself is patriotic.

 

[Moonbear]

I've analyzed that poem in 3 different English classes (different schools), 2 British and one Canadian and each time they taught me that the proper translation was 'Sweet and Glorious'. This is what I was referring to; there seems to be some consensus among the education system(s) that that is the proper translation. I'm not sure how this came about.

It's not the translation I was taught, though I was taught the translation in Latin class, not English class.

decorus, -a, -um, fitting, becoming, seemly, proper, decent, graceful;
decorum, -i, propriety, grace.

dulcis, -e, sweet, pleasant, dear.

Perhaps the mistranslation derives from confusion with the word decor.
decor, -oris, charm, beauty, grace.

I've also seen it translated as "It is good and honorable to die for your country."

Incidentally, patria (fatherland or native land) is a feminine noun. Some things in Latin don't entirely make sense, but it may relate to the idea that people settled on fertile land and fertility is associated with femininity (just my guess).

Also in the adjective form:
patrius, -a, -um, of a father, father's, paternal; ancestral.

 

[Galileo]

That's a pretty twisted view of patriotism, El. Specifically,
That's self-contradictory. The "better" a country is to live in, the more the citizens will enjoy living there. Patriotism comes from the citizens, it is not imposed on them by the government.

I disagree. Patriotism (which is simply a euphemism for nationalism) is heavily influenced by the government. If you are grown up into a society where you are taught to sing the national anthem every morning, see the flags of your country all over and only hear about how much greater your country is compared to the rest of the world you (well, at least 90% op the population) WILL feel that way. Especially if there a lot of tension and negative feelings towards another group (country, or ethnic group). People are particularly easily influenced then.
You can't argue that nazism came from the people alone without inluence from the government (or Hitler). The Japanese government has been accused of covering up war crimes. They would only do so to enhance the people's patriotic feelings. If you are born in Palestine or Israel, I think it would take a very wise and rationale person to see the conflict from an unbiased viewpoint.

Yes, the government can use patriotism to control the people. Don't be fooled into thinking it can't, because it happens easier than you may think. It has happened countless of times in the past.

 

[MaxS]

I disagree. Patriotism (which is simply a euphemism for nationalism) is heavily influenced by the government. If you are grown up into a society where you are taught to sing the national anthem every morning, see the flags of your country all over and only hear about how much greater your country is compared to the rest of the world you (well, at least 90% op the population) WILL feel that way. Especially if there a lot of tension and negative feelings towards another group (country, or ethnic group). People are particularly easily influenced then.

I myself have always been opposed to the singing of the national anthem at school events and reciting the pledge of alliegance in school altogether, since it is a blatant and sad way to teach children to be nationalistic.

This is the biggest problem with "patriots", they care nothing for mankind but for their own country only. In the end its rather selfish, even of those who are so selfless in the cause.

 

[russ_watters]

I disagree. Patriotism (which is simply a euphemism for nationalism)...

This is the biggest problem with "patriots", they care nothing for mankind but for their own country only.

Both of you are confusing patriotism with nationalism. To patriots, they are not the same thing. Ie:

they care nothing for mankind but for their own country only.

Patriotism has nothing at all to do with how one feels toward other countries.

 

[Archon]

Both of you are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

Patriotism: love for or devotion to one's country
Nationalism: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
They are virtually identical when "one's country" is the same as "a nation." (See rest of post).

To patriots, they are not the same thing. Ie: Patriotism has nothing at all to do with how one feels toward other countries.

At least implicitly, it does. If you love and are devoted to your country, then chances are, you feel that it is better than other countries. This is why you are especially devoted to "your" country: it has to be somehow deserving of this devotion, at least in your own mind. If nothing else, Patriotic feelings lead to the belief that "your" country is the best.

Obviously, nationalism is more aggressive than patriotism. Patriotism is really a less extreme version of nationalism, and can develop into full-fledged nationalism in a veritable heartbeat.

 

[EL]

That's a pretty twisted view of patriotism, El. Specifically,

Originally Posted by EL
It seems like the better country to live in, the less patriotic the people is.

That's self-contradictory. The "better" a country is to live in, the more the citizens will enjoy living there. Patriotism comes from the citizens, it is not imposed on them by the government.

So what's twisted with my view?
I enjoy living in Sweden, but I'm definitely not patriotic. According to your definition I should be, but I have never heard anyone define patriotism in that way. I'll better explain shortly what I mean by patriotism: A person who is patriotic is someone who always will stand up for and defend his country and its values. If the patriotism is "imposed from the government" or "comes from the citizens" doesn't matter, it still is what it is.
Hence I cannot see why my view is self-contradictory at all?

 

[zanazzi78]

rarebit? what's rare about it? or, better question, are you sure there's no other 'bits' in it?

What`s rare about it? ??!... well it`s a Welsh dish which is pretty rare!

 

[Evo]

What`s rare about it? ??!... well it`s a Welsh dish which is pretty rare!

I love Welsh rarebit. When I was little, I thought it was Welsh Rabbit, but was confused why it was just melted cheese.

 

[Integral]

True American Patroism must be a very differnt beast from that of other countries. I believe that true American Patroism is defined in Therous essay "On Civil Disobediance" It is the true American Patriots to guard against govermental encroachment on our basic rights as stated in the Declaration of Independence and the constituion.

The current state of affairs is alarming, there is way to much nationalism and not nearly enough patriotism.

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/civ.dis.html

 

[brewnog]

I love Welsh rarebit. When I was little, I thought it was Welsh Rabbit, but was confused why it was just melted cheese.

Evo: Welsh culture lesson:
In the old days, real Welsh Rabbits made too much of a mess when they grated them, so nowadays they use rarebit (cheese) instead of rabbits to save on the washing up.

 

[Evo]

Evo: Welsh culture lesson:
In the old days, real Welsh Rabbits made too much of a mess when they grated them, so nowadays they use rarebit (cheese) instead of rabbits to save on the washing up.

Eeeewwwww.

 

[Learning Curve]

America:

I'm proud of our freedom and our power. I'm proud of our patriotism and our land.

What I'm not proud of is our government (i.e. the people in it) and our culture. Our ignorance is a problem, and our lack of a good school system.( I live in Tennessee and our public school systems are a joke.)

 

[Galileo]

Learning curve. From my standpoint, that does not make you a patriot, but an idealist.
What is important to you are the symbolic meanings you happen to relate to america, like freedom, liberty, independence, democrazy, ehm demoCRACY.
That's different from being a american patriot, which means having a chauvinistic prefererence over all things american.

 

[arildno]

Of course, when everyone uses their own, particular meaning of the words "patriotism" and "nationalism", which might well defer from the meanings used by another person, then we have in place the optimal conditions for an endless and sterile "debate".

 

[Smurf]

slash flamewar

 

[gurkhawarhorse]

not proud of

I am from the US and I am proud of the US. Frankly, I can't see why physical features of the land would be something to be proud of, though: Americans didn't build the Grand Canyon.

->well then, i am not proud of the mt. everest.

->i am not proud of having hydro electricity to lighten the whole asia ( not used to even 5 % of total power though. )

->not proud of having 10 of the world top 14 mountains; and 8 of world top 10

->not, no, never, proud of having the birth place of lord buddha.(there is a debate between India and nepal for this but the ashoka pillar (of king ashok who came to nepal after turning into buddhist) stands only in nepal and India is still searching in its territory for it)
well, {that time there were no nepal and India & the country of buddha was between nepal and India but inscriptions pointing the location within the range of +-50 km comes under nepal} this pinpointing was done by japan first and china later

->not proud of having variety of climate(at least temperature):-
:summer season max recorded 55 c in nepaljung and,
:summer(not winter) measurement of mt everest temp is -80c as no one has measured it in winter season)

gurkha-war-horse

 

[EL]

So the question is: Who's definition shall we stick too? The Swedish, the American, the Dutch, the Canadian, the Chinese,...? If I vote for the first, would that make me a patriot? (Or nationalist, or how was it?) So maybe I will wait for someone else to deside, just in order to make it clear that I'm not patriotic! (Accordning to my definition)

 

[arildno]

So the question is: Who's definition shall we stick too? The Swedish, the American, the Dutch, the Canadian, the Chinese,...? If I vote for the first, would that make me a patriot? (Or nationalist, or how was it?) So maybe I will wait for someone else to deside, just in order to make it clear that I'm not patriotic! (accordning to what I mean by patriotic)

Well, to me as a Norwegian, it is no news that there doesn't exist anything Swedes could really be patriotic about..

As an example:
Jumping through your house in Christmas time, hollering about some dumb fox?
Please..

 

[EL]

Well, to me as a Norwegian, it is no news that there doesn't exist anything Swedes could really be patriotic about..

As an example:
Jumping through your house in Christmas time, hollering about some dumb fox?
Please..

Well, I have to say that "the small frogs" and "the priest's little crow" which we sing about in midsummer kick ass compared to that boring fox running over the ice!
Anyway, as a Norwegian you must be very proud over your entertaining soccer team!

 

[arildno]

Anyway, as a Norwegian you must be very proud over your entertaining soccer team!

Yes, some of them have very nice butts.

 

[EL]

Yes, some of them have very nice&tight butts.

If you think so, you have never seen the Swedish team...

 

[arildno]

If you think so, you have never seen the Swedish team...

Okay, I'll take your word on that.
So I was wrong then after all; Swedes DO have something to be proud of after all..

 

[EL]

Okay, I'll take your word on that.
So I was wrong then after all; Swedes DO have something to be proud of after all..

Well I'm just "proud" of my own but...

 

[arildno]

Well I'm just "proud" of my own but...

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

Well there r a 100 reasons to be proud of being an Egyptian, but that's just it..I'm more fond of my city than my whole country, i think of myself as alexandrian 1st, and then Egyptian...This is kinda strange but it ahs been always like that for me

 

[arildno]

Well there r a 100 reasons to be proud of being an Egyptian, but that's just it..I'm more fond of my city than my whole country, i think of myself as alexandrian 1st, and then Egyptian...This is kinda strange but it ahs been always like that for me

I think that's a perfectly natural sentiment.
I think of myself more as an Oslonian than a Norwegian.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

Not many people share the same opinion, but do u think that this has got to do with the city itself??

 

[arildno]

Not many people share the same opinion, but do u think that this has got to do with the city itself??

No, I think it has more to do with that you identify the strongest with the social "group" you're interacting most with.

That is, your strongest bonds are typically to those of friends&family, then perhaps comes how you identify yourself with your work and your colleagues, then your city, then your country, then possibly, the rest of humanity..

 

[russ_watters]

Well there r a 100 reasons to be proud of being an Egyptian, but that's just it..I'm more fond of my city than my whole country, i think of myself as alexandrian 1st, and then Egyptian...This is kinda strange but it ahs been always like that for me

There are Americans who are that way as well - they tend to be in specific groups.

 

[russ_watters]

So the question is: Who's definition shall we stick too? The Swedish, the American, the Dutch, the Canadian, the Chinese,...? If I vote for the first, would that make me a patriot? (Or nationalist, or how was it?) So maybe I will wait for someone else to deside, just in order to make it clear that I'm not patriotic! (Accordning to my definition)

I took a class called "nations and nationalism" in college and the class analyzed the causes and effects of nationalism (as well as related issues like patriotism and xenophobia) all over the world. I'd be interested in hearing scholarly definitions from around the world, but I'm not inclined to accept popular definitions.

It's a lot like the debate on defining "terrorism" - since it is an emotionally/politically charged word, people tend to use it as it suits them and utterly refuse to agree on an objective definition.

 

[russ_watters]

True American Patroism must be a very differnt beast from that of other countries. I believe that true American Patroism is defined in Therous essay "On Civil Disobediance" It is the true American Patriots to guard against govermental encroachment on our basic rights as stated in the Declaration of Independence and the constituion.

This may well be the case, which is why I'd like to hear some scholarly definitions from other countries. The idea that patriotism can come from disobedience (or even rebellion) is something that may well be uniquely American.

Nationalism is much simpler to define.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

No, I think it has more to do with that you identify the strongest with the social "group" you're interacting most with.

That is, your strongest bonds are typically to those of friends&family, then perhaps comes how you identify yourself with your work and your colleagues, then your city, then your country, then possibly, the rest of humanity..

Possibly..

 

[russ_watters]

Patriotism: love for or devotion to one's country
Nationalism: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
They are virtually identical when "one's country" is the same as "a nation." (See rest of post). [emphasis added]

Virtually identical, but there is a key difference, in bold. IMO, that's an understatement, but it does capture the idea: nationalism is exclusionary and dominerring, patriotism is not.

For example, German Nationalism in the 1930s held that since Germany was the best and needed "living room", inferior countries should give that space to Germany. American patriotism means exporting our system of government, but not so we can conquer, but so others can share in our prosperity.

At least implicitly, it does. If you love and are devoted to your country, then chances are, you feel that it is better than other countries.

Actually, you are making two logical leaps there, not just one: there is nothing exclusionary or in any way negative about thinking your country is better than others. In fact, if you didn't think you live in the best country, you really should move! Where the feeling of being better becomes dangerous is when you think because we are better, we deserve your land, resources, etc.. That's what the nationalistic wars in the first half of this century were about. But the feeling of being better, on its own, is not a bad thing at all and does not imply animosity.

Obviously, nationalism is more aggressive than patriotism. Patriotism is really a less extreme version of nationalism, and can develop into full-fledged nationalism in a veritable heartbeat.

I agree - they are separate (didn't you just contradict yourself..?), but related ideas. But the differences are important. They explain, for example, why the western world has not been invovled in territorial expansion since WWII.

 

[gurkhawarhorse]

uh! one thing the writer of ( hilight )kama-sutra ie. veda vyasa came to nepal with his 2 wives to meditate in kaligandaki river area and wrote the best book in the world!
well, nearly all of the hindu sages were born in India but, nearly all of them came to the mountains for penance and meditation. vyasa was one of them.

gurkha-war-horse

 

[Gokul43201]

IMO, patriotism is often useful in the sense that it focuses effort towards progress. However, in the sense that a person will likely stick up for his/her country in general, it is illogical.

 

[EL]

American patriotism means exporting our system of government, but not so we can conquer, but so others can share in our prosperity.

So, on assuming you're a patriot, why do you want to "export" the American system of government, and not the Swedish or Australian one?

Another question: Do you see the people of North Korea as patriots?

 

[motai]

veda vyasa came to nepal with his 2 wives to meditate in kaligandaki river area and wrote the best book in the world!

Meditate.. right

Seems more like experimentation to me .

 

[russ_watters]

So, on assuming you're a patriot, why do you want to "export" the American system of government, and not the Swedish or Australian one?

Since I feel the American one is the best, I feel it would benefit other countries more to adopt our system (or, perhaps, a hybrid) than others. Many countries of the Eastern Bloc needed just that type of advice in the 1990s, as they tried to form democratic governments from scratch. But it is actually as much about the ideals as it is the actual structure of the government. It gave me great pride when I visited Lithuania about 5 years ago and saw how the citizens identified with American values on government. We were with a NATO force from 8 countries (in the Navy) and the reception we got made it clear: 'you are the ones we wish to emulate.' That is what makes me most proud to be an American.

Another question: Do you see the people of North Korea as patriots?

I don't have a clue what the average North Korean thinks about his country/situation. I know that if I were in such a situation, I wouldn't have much of a national identity left to feel patriotism for: in a dictatorship, the dictator is the country. And I would despise Il as much as a North Korean as I do as an American.