Do you feel proud to your contry?

[fourier jr]

Typical, the world allways forgets about the Welsh !

(Oh ... yeah the thread) I am proud to be Welsh and no we haven`t made any great significant contribution to world cuisine

bertrand russell was welsh. that's something to be proud of.

 

[MaxS]

I am from the US and I am proud of the US. Frankly, I can't see why physical features of the land would be something to be proud of, though: Americans didn't build the Grand Canyon.

Better to be proud of the grand canyon than our history of conquest

 

[MaxS]

...I hate nationalism. It's something the world can do without.

Agreed. Be proud of the wonder mankind finds when we look to the stars.

Not of petty squabbles and meaningless titles.

The wholescale slaughter of people through armed conflict is a wholly nationalistic cause (whether or not it is stirred by religious fervor).

 

[Smurf]

It's so chauvinistic, isn't it? Why can't we be 'matriotic?'

the word patriotic comes from latin patria; meaning 'country' and is (i believe) non gender-specific

 

[MaxS]

"Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori."

Translation: It is sweet and glorious to die for one's country.

So no I don't think its gender specific.

In other news: Pretty good right wing rhetoric huh? Surprised FOX News hasn't made it their motto instead of "fair and balanced"

 

[rachmaninoff]

"Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori."

Translation: It is sweet and glorious to die for one's country.

So no I don't think its gender specific.

How the in name of Saturn is patria not gender specific? It means "fatherland"*, and dervies directly from pater:patris meaning "father". Ancient Rome was a patriarchial society, how can you try to deny that?

*also "homeland" or "native country" (ironically to English speakers, it's a feminine noun)

As for 'decorum' --> 'glorious', where'd you get that translation? More precise would be "it is sweet and proper".

 

[MaxS]

lol take it easy I'm not trying to deny anything i just don't know anything about latin apparently

 

[LeonhardEuler]

I am American and I feel proud of it, but I think it would be best if I didn't. I do have a feeling of pride about America creating modern democracy, putting a man on the moon, stoping the nazis, etc., but It doesn't really make sense. I wasn't even around for any of these things and contributed nothing to their getting done. Honestly, I think patriotism is a dangerous emotion. It is something one feels and does not control like, anger or jealosy, and like these it can make people behave irrationally. People will give their lives for the glory of a king who doesn't know their name or have more than an intelectual interest in whether they live or die. When a government wants to build an empire and needs people to risk their lives fighting for a cause that offers them no benefits in their every day lives, how does it convince people to fight? Governments often appeal to nationalism to do this. Nationalism makes people treat other people as less than human. People talk about all the civillian casualties in the Iraq war and say that its too bad, but if that's what it takes to stop another 9-11, its got to be done. But by any count the civillian casualties in that war are greater than those in the attacks. Isn't the war a greater tragedy? People don't seem to think so. I think nationalism has much to do with this. The world would be an infinitely better place if people left behind the notion of nations, which don't really exist except in people's minds. We have to stop banding together in these cliques and killing each other. We should just recognize people as people and leave it at that.

 

[Smurf]

How the in name of Saturn is patria not gender specific? It means "fatherland"*, and dervies directly from pater:patris meaning "father". Ancient Rome was a patriarchial society, how can you try to deny that?

*also "homeland" or "native country" (ironically to English speakers, it's a feminine noun)

So.. It means 'fatherland' and is masculin, but also means 'homeland' and is feminine? Can you clarify please?

As for 'decorum' --> 'glorious', where'd you get that translation? More precise would be "it is sweet and proper".

The incorrect translation of that quote comes from the poem "Dulce et Decorum Est" by Wilfred Owen, which is taught in the British and Canadian English curriculum (possibly others). Another sign of the Education system crashing down around us.

And I think the best translation I've seen is 'sweet and seemly', but I'm not fluent in latin, so you tell me.

lol take it easy I'm not trying to deny anything i just don't know anything about latin apparently

It's not your fault, I thought it meant glorious too for the longest time.

 

[rachmaninoff]

So.. It means 'fatherland' and is masculin, but also means 'homeland' and is feminine? Can you clarify please?

It's not 'masculine', it's a feminine noun that translates alternatively as 'fatherland' (most literal), 'country', 'homeland', what have you. Abstractions and locations in Latin are usually of feminine gender, if you only speak English it's not something you'd be familiar with. The English words 'patriotic', 'patriotism', deriving from a word meaning 'fatherland', thus strongly reflect the patriarchial nature of Roman society, the respect for the land of the father, and are hardly gender-neutral. The linguistic gender of the Latin root doesn't really make any difference.

As for, "Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,", I'm quite familiar with that poem, and I don't see that it offers any translation whatsoever; it appears in its original Latin,
"The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. "
As for "sweet and seemly", that's just fine, 'seemly' and 'proper' are very similar transliterations and mean basically the same thing.

 

[Smurf]

As for, "Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,", I'm quite familiar with that poem, and I don't see that it offers any translation whatsoever; it appears in its original Latin,
"The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. "

I've analyzed that poem in 3 different English classes (different schools), 2 British and one Canadian and each time they taught me that the proper translation was 'Sweet and Glorious'. This is what I was referring to; there seems to be some consensus among the education system(s) that that is the proper translation. I'm not sure how this came about.

 

[loseyourname]

the word patriotic comes from latin patria; meaning 'country' and is (i believe) non gender-specific

The Latin "Patria" is derived from the Greek "Patros," which means father. Heck, the Latin for father is "Pater." Why do you think they have the same root?

 

[Grotesque Puppet]

I'm proud of my country for choosing peace over war.

 

[yu_wing_sin]

I'm very glad I was born in Sweden, but I can not say that I'm proud of that, I just happened to be very lucky.

Since I'm not the one who "built" Sweden, I cannot say I'm more proud of "my" country than I am proud of for example Norway or Australia.

"Patriotism" is probably the uggliest word ever.

Haha, every one has their value view, there is no absolute stand in this point. But China gov encourages and stresses patriotism education, the proud to contry is very important point, it can increase the nations to contry's attributive feeling, I also agree to it, this is the heavy direction to protect the regime of government. Marx he thought, the excessive freedom to people, is not absolute good, people can take the advantage of this to disturb the government's rule, and may cause breakdown of regime. So the medium freedom for people is suitable. Now China gov has enlightened, she is gradually openning in ruling.

 

[EL]

Haha, every one has their value view, there is no absolute stand in this point. But China gov encourages and stresses patriotism education, the proud to contry is very important point, it can increase the nations to contry's attributive feeling, I also agree to it, this is the heavy direction to protect the regime of government. Marx he thought, the excessive freedom to people, is not absolute good, people can take the advantage of this to disturb the government's rule, and may cause breakdown of regime. So the medium freedom for people is suitable. Now China gov has enlightened, she is gradually openning in ruling.

Yes, patriotism is a way for governments to keep their citizens calm. In patriotic countries the government seems free to do almost anything, since if anyone is against it they will be seen as traitors. This is really absurd.
It seems like the better country to live in, the less patriotic the people is. Probably because the government need not have to spread patriotic thoughts in order to remain.
So, in my opinion, patriotism is a huge sign that something is really wrong.

I can not see why one should feel proud of a country just because one happens to be born on a certain side of an imaginary line.

 

[brewnog]

I am proud to be Welsh and no we haven`t made any great significant contribution to world cuisine

Bill Bailey does a good sketch on that. "Welsh national dish? Cheese on toast! It's no bother, see?"

"Ambassadorial reception? I'll put the grill on!"

 

[zanazzi78]

Bill Bailey does a good sketch on that. "Welsh national dish? Cheese on toast! It's no bother, see?"

"Ambassadorial reception? I'll put the grill on!"

Actually its cheese and spring onion on toast! and called Welsh rarebit!

 

[Smurf]

rarebit? what's rare about it? or, better question, are you sure there's no other 'bits' in it?

 

[arildno]

Are you out of your TREE? Yorkshire pudding is BEAUTIFUL! And Worcestershire sauce is pretty good too, best on cheese on toast. Fish & Chips are nothing without heaps of salt and vinegar, and mushy peas help too. And Guinness... mmmmmmmmmmm!

Yomamma; Black Pudding is a dubious one. I'm proud that our country could come up with something so vile which tastes so nice, but it's easy to see where the lack of appeal originates.

I register you did not contradict me on the C P-B issue..

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I don't think nationalism is a good thing, but do like different cultures. I've been impressed by how polite our neighbours have been, popping into congratulate us whenever our teams have done well, as if we had something to do with it. This week we've been reciprocating!

2 runs baby, 2 runs!

Well played!

 

[rachmaninoff]

The Latin "Patria" is derived from the Greek "Patros," which means father. Heck, the Latin for father is "Pater." Why do you think they have the same root?

The genitive of 'pater' is 'patris', so the stem from which all other forms derive is patr-. I'm not sure which Latin word came first, but it seems clear they both derive from the same root, which you point out also existed in Greek.

 

[russ_watters]

That's a pretty twisted view of patriotism, El. Specifically,

It seems like the better country to live in, the less patriotic the people is.

That's self-contradictory. The "better" a country is to live in, the more the citizens will enjoy living there. Patriotism comes from the citizens, it is not imposed on them by the government.

And regarding dissent - the US is the originator of the idea that dissent itself is patriotic.

 

[Moonbear]

I've analyzed that poem in 3 different English classes (different schools), 2 British and one Canadian and each time they taught me that the proper translation was 'Sweet and Glorious'. This is what I was referring to; there seems to be some consensus among the education system(s) that that is the proper translation. I'm not sure how this came about.

It's not the translation I was taught, though I was taught the translation in Latin class, not English class.

decorus, -a, -um, fitting, becoming, seemly, proper, decent, graceful;
decorum, -i, propriety, grace.

dulcis, -e, sweet, pleasant, dear.

Perhaps the mistranslation derives from confusion with the word decor.
decor, -oris, charm, beauty, grace.

I've also seen it translated as "It is good and honorable to die for your country."

Incidentally, patria (fatherland or native land) is a feminine noun. Some things in Latin don't entirely make sense, but it may relate to the idea that people settled on fertile land and fertility is associated with femininity (just my guess).

Also in the adjective form:
patrius, -a, -um, of a father, father's, paternal; ancestral.

 

[Galileo]

That's a pretty twisted view of patriotism, El. Specifically,
That's self-contradictory. The "better" a country is to live in, the more the citizens will enjoy living there. Patriotism comes from the citizens, it is not imposed on them by the government.

I disagree. Patriotism (which is simply a euphemism for nationalism) is heavily influenced by the government. If you are grown up into a society where you are taught to sing the national anthem every morning, see the flags of your country all over and only hear about how much greater your country is compared to the rest of the world you (well, at least 90% op the population) WILL feel that way. Especially if there a lot of tension and negative feelings towards another group (country, or ethnic group). People are particularly easily influenced then.
You can't argue that nazism came from the people alone without inluence from the government (or Hitler). The Japanese government has been accused of covering up war crimes. They would only do so to enhance the people's patriotic feelings. If you are born in Palestine or Israel, I think it would take a very wise and rationale person to see the conflict from an unbiased viewpoint.

Yes, the government can use patriotism to control the people. Don't be fooled into thinking it can't, because it happens easier than you may think. It has happened countless of times in the past.

 

[MaxS]

I disagree. Patriotism (which is simply a euphemism for nationalism) is heavily influenced by the government. If you are grown up into a society where you are taught to sing the national anthem every morning, see the flags of your country all over and only hear about how much greater your country is compared to the rest of the world you (well, at least 90% op the population) WILL feel that way. Especially if there a lot of tension and negative feelings towards another group (country, or ethnic group). People are particularly easily influenced then.

I myself have always been opposed to the singing of the national anthem at school events and reciting the pledge of alliegance in school altogether, since it is a blatant and sad way to teach children to be nationalistic.

This is the biggest problem with "patriots", they care nothing for mankind but for their own country only. In the end its rather selfish, even of those who are so selfless in the cause.

 

[russ_watters]

I disagree. Patriotism (which is simply a euphemism for nationalism)...

This is the biggest problem with "patriots", they care nothing for mankind but for their own country only.

Both of you are confusing patriotism with nationalism. To patriots, they are not the same thing. Ie:

they care nothing for mankind but for their own country only.

Patriotism has nothing at all to do with how one feels toward other countries.

 

[Archon]

Both of you are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

Patriotism: love for or devotion to one's country
Nationalism: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
They are virtually identical when "one's country" is the same as "a nation." (See rest of post).

To patriots, they are not the same thing. Ie: Patriotism has nothing at all to do with how one feels toward other countries.

At least implicitly, it does. If you love and are devoted to your country, then chances are, you feel that it is better than other countries. This is why you are especially devoted to "your" country: it has to be somehow deserving of this devotion, at least in your own mind. If nothing else, Patriotic feelings lead to the belief that "your" country is the best.

Obviously, nationalism is more aggressive than patriotism. Patriotism is really a less extreme version of nationalism, and can develop into full-fledged nationalism in a veritable heartbeat.

 

[EL]

That's a pretty twisted view of patriotism, El. Specifically,

Originally Posted by EL
It seems like the better country to live in, the less patriotic the people is.

That's self-contradictory. The "better" a country is to live in, the more the citizens will enjoy living there. Patriotism comes from the citizens, it is not imposed on them by the government.

So what's twisted with my view?
I enjoy living in Sweden, but I'm definitely not patriotic. According to your definition I should be, but I have never heard anyone define patriotism in that way. I'll better explain shortly what I mean by patriotism: A person who is patriotic is someone who always will stand up for and defend his country and its values. If the patriotism is "imposed from the government" or "comes from the citizens" doesn't matter, it still is what it is.
Hence I cannot see why my view is self-contradictory at all?

 

[zanazzi78]

rarebit? what's rare about it? or, better question, are you sure there's no other 'bits' in it?

What`s rare about it? ??!... well it`s a Welsh dish which is pretty rare!

 

[Evo]

What`s rare about it? ??!... well it`s a Welsh dish which is pretty rare!

I love Welsh rarebit. When I was little, I thought it was Welsh Rabbit, but was confused why it was just melted cheese.