Charles Murray said:What does the [American creed] consist of? It's three core values may be summarized as egalitarianism, liberty, and individualism. From these flow other familiar aspects of the national creed that observers have long identified: equality before the law, equality of opportunity, freedom of speech and association, self-reliance, limited government, free-market economics, decentralized and devolved political authority.
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Today the creed has lost its authority and its substance. What happened? ... the emergence of a new upper class and a new lower class, and in the plight of the working class caught in between. ... Both of these new classes have repudiated the creed in practice, whatever lip service they still pay to it.
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During the same half-century, the federal government allowed the immigration, legal and illegal, of tens of millions of competitors for the remaining working class jobs.
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Add to this the fact that while working class men are looked down upon by the elites and get little validation in their own communities for being good providers, fathers and spouses - and that life in their communities is falling apart. To top it off, the party they have voted for in recent decades, the Republicans, hasn't done a damn thing to help them. Who wouldn't be angry?
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If Bernie Sanders were passionate about immigration, the rest of his ideology would have a lot more in common with Trumpism than conservatism.
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As a political matter, it is not a problem that Mr. Sanders doesn't share the traditional American meanings of liberty and individualism. Neither does Mr. Trump. Neither, any longer, do many in the white working class. They have joined other defectors from the American creed.
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When faith in that secular religion is held only by fragments of the American people, we will soon be just another nation - a very powerful one, a very rich one, still called The United States of America. But we will have detached ourselves from the bedrock that has made us unique in the history of the world.
Spot on. That's the best answer to this thread that I've seen. Thanks for posting it.anorlunda said:I found a link to Murray's essay that is not behind a pay wall.
http://www.aei.org/publication/trum...content=AEITHISWEEK&utm_campaign=Weekly021216
If you are truly puzzled about why Trump gets so much support, you owe it to yourself to read it.
This is the thing I find saddest of all. Why do people want to "lash out" at the two-party regime that's been in power since the 1800s by electing someone with more promises from within one of the "two" parties.anorlunda said:I found a link to Murray's essay that is not behind a pay wall.
http://www.aei.org/publication/trum...content=AEITHISWEEK&utm_campaign=Weekly021216
If you are truly puzzled about why Trump gets so much support, you owe it to yourself to read it.
p1l0t said:This is the thing I find saddest of all. Why do people want to "lash out" at the two-party regime that's been in power since the 1800s by electing someone with more promises from within one of the "two" parties.
gleem said:When Trump says that He wants to make America great again beside economically to what else is He referring or to what period in our history would He like to return that reflects his view of greatness? When He states that He will bring back water boarding or worse is that part of His vision of greatness?
Yes I read that. And I don't disagree competely with it being a slap in the face, but it isn't nearly as big a slap in the face as it would be to vote some 3rd party candidate in. Trouble is nobody thinks it's possible and therefore won't even express there disinterest by voting that way even if they do. That's why we need to end "first past the post" voting and go to some kind of instant runoff.anorlunda said:You are both focusing on Trump rather than Trump's supporters. I think that some of his supporters (and some Sanders supporters too) want to repudiate the system with a dope slap. A slap in the face is not a suggestion to the slapee of how to behave better; it's message is "change your behavior"
Read the Murray essay linked above,
p1l0t said:don't disagree competely with it being a slap in the face, but it isn't nearly as big a slap in the face as it would be to vote some 3rd party candidate in.
And if there was an instant runoff system Ross Perot might have won.anorlunda said:Sure, I agree. But at its best, voting in an election is a very blunt weapon. The voters have little chance to be nuanced. If they were nuanced, politicians could choose to misread the message.
In 1992, Ross Perot got 18.9% of the popular vote. How much of Perot's message was remembered on Clinton's Inauguration Day? I think zero.
Some kind of parliamentary like system can have appeal. But there is zero chance of changing the constitution to get it, so we should forget it.
anorlunda said:You are both focusing on Trump rather than Trump's supporters.
Peace and prosperity.gleem said:Then what does make America great again mean to Trump's supporters?
If that were only the whole story. You forgot the white and christian, well armed and "just like me" part.Dotini said:Peace and prosperity.
That's a grim view of where America is going. Not sure if that's really what motivates Trump supporters, but it is what has me most worried for the future of the US, philosophically.anorlunda said:I found a link to Murray's essay that is not behind a pay wall.
http://www.aei.org/publication/trum...content=AEITHISWEEK&utm_campaign=Weekly021216
If you are truly puzzled about why Trump gets so much support, you owe it to yourself to read it.
Donald Trump is again hinting at a possible independent run for president if the Republican National Committee (RNC) doesn’t condemn Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) for his recent barrage of political attacks against the billionaire.
Jeb Bush retorted, ". . . my brother was building a security apparatus to keep us safe, and I’m proud of what he did,” . . .“Obviously, the war in Iraq was a big, fat mistake, all right?” Trump thundered when asked about his call for then-President George W. Bush to be impeached. “They lied. They said there were weapons of mass destruction. There were none, and they knew there were none.”
Trump added, “George Bush made the mistake. We can make mistakes, but that one was a beauty.”
The essay is a brief history of the trend that's been taking place over the past 50 years. But yes, if things continue the way they have, then it's a pretty grim view. My worry is that it's just too late to turn it around.russ_watters said:That's a grim view of where America is going. Not sure if that's really what motivates Trump supporters, but it is what has me most worried for the future of the US, philosophically.
Trump is the wrong guy to turn it around, but he might be the right one to be an alarm clock.TurtleMeister said:The essay is a brief history of the trend that's been taking place over the past 50 years. But yes, if things continue the way they have, then it's a pretty grim view. My worry is that it's just too late to turn it around.
russ_watters said:Trump is the wrong guy to turn it around, but he might be the right one to be an alarm clock.
No, I was referring to the Republican party as the object of the alarm and the supporters are the ones who set it ("the system"...though this won't apply to Democrats). The Republican party keeps putting up candidates who fail at addressing what many Republicans feel is wrong with the country. Maybe Trump's popularity will wake them up that their heads are in the wrong place.anorlunda said:You are again focusing on Trump rather than his supporters.
In #128, I said that his supporters are trying to give the system a slap in the face
Apparently Trump's supporters are serious -- but their anger level isn't what matters in making your slap land, their numbers are.. The constructive value of a slap (if any) is in the shock. Voting in an idiot as president is the kind of shock that would get everyone's attention. Why assume that Trump supporters are not angry enough to do that? What else could they do to show the country how angry they are?
Astronuc said:Trump may be losing some of that popularity.
The Democratic race only has two candidates. When the low-quality performing Republicans drop out, we'll see where their supporters land.gleem said:I just read a summary of the voting in NH. Sanders received 151,584 to Trump's 100,406 votes even though 30,000 more Republican voted than Democrats . Trump took 35.3% of the Republican vote while Sanders took 60% of the Democratic vote. So it not clear how popular He is.
russ_watters said:The Democratic race only has two candidates. When the low-quality performing Republicans drop out, we'll see where their supporters land.
You think they'll vote for Clinton/Sanders instead? I won't, though I strongly dislike Trump.gleem said:It is hard to imagine that current supporter of Bush, Rubio, Cruz or Kasich would end up in Trumps camp.
I think he means they'll vote for Rubio or one of the other mainstream Republican candidates. That's my theory.mheslep said:You think they'll vote for Clinton/Sanders instead?
"A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the gospel," the Pope told journalists who asked his opinion on Trump's proposals to halt illegal immigration.
"If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS's ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president," Trump added.