Does Decoherence Von Neumann Interpretationrefute

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the interpretation of quantum mechanics, particularly the role of consciousness in wave function collapse as proposed by John von Neumann, and whether this interpretation has been refuted by the concept of decoherence. Participants explore the implications of these ideas in various contexts, including the Earth's core and unobserved environments.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the validity of von Neumann's assertion that consciousness collapses the wave function, particularly in light of modern understandings of decoherence.
  • Others propose that while von Neumann's interpretation may not be taken seriously today, it still offers a useful perspective on the relationship between consciousness and quantum mechanics.
  • A participant suggests that if organisms exist in superposition without observation, it raises questions about their evolution and the nature of physical reality.
  • Another participant argues that the universe's wave function is objective and independent of human observation, challenging the notion that consciousness is necessary for wave function collapse.
  • Some express confusion about how dynamics can occur in a superposition state, questioning the implications for unobserved systems like the Earth's core or deep-sea organisms.
  • There is a discussion about the historical context of von Neumann's ideas, with some participants seeking to understand his reasoning and the implications of his model in light of decoherence.
  • A later reply emphasizes that decoherence explains the unobservability of superpositions without necessitating wave function collapse, suggesting that the concept of consciousness causing collapse is unnecessary.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the validity of von Neumann's interpretation and its relevance today. There is no consensus on whether his ideas have been refuted or if they still hold value in understanding quantum mechanics.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that decoherence provides an explanation for why superpositions are not observed in macroscopic systems, but there is uncertainty about how this interacts with the concept of consciousness and wave function collapse. The discussion reflects a mix of historical analysis and contemporary interpretations of quantum mechanics.

  • #91
Alfrez said:
"Everett considers the many worlds as real, in an ontological sense.[...]"
Pls. refute the above if possible using critical arguments..

You can read my refutation of the MWI in Chapter A4 of my theoretical physics FAQ
http://arnold-neumaier.at/physfaq/physics-faq.html#manyworlds
I don't consider it to be a serious interpretation, and won't waste my time on further discussing it.
 
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  • #92
A. Neumaier said:
You can read my refutation of the MWI in Chapter A4 of my theoretical physics FAQ
http://arnold-neumaier.at/physfaq/physics-faq.html#manyworlds
I don't consider it to be a serious interpretation, and won't waste my time on further discussing it.

I read it and here's a partial refutation of it. You wrote there that

"Q1 Who believes in many-worlds?

many- worlds is most popular amongst scientists
who may rather loosely be described as string theorists or
quantum gravitists/cosmologists. It is less popular
amongst the wider scientific community who mostly
remain in ignorance of it.

String theorists and quantum gravitists/cosmologists are those
physicists farthest removed from experiment and hence most free to
entertain fancy theories without stringent constraints that would
bring them down to earth. That the wider scientific community mostly
ignores MWI is a healthy sign of contact to reality."

Here's the refutation:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0101/0101077v1.pdf
quoting

"An informal poll taken at a conference on quantum
computation at the Isaac Newton Institute in Cambridge
in July 1999 gave the following results:

~~

Which interpretation of quantum mechanics is closest to your own?
(a) Copenhagen or consistent histories (including postulate of explicit collapse): 4
(b) Modified dynamics (Schroedinger equation modified to give explicit collapse): 4
(c) Many worlds/consistent histories (no collapse): 30
(d) Bohm (an ontological interpretation where an auxiliary “pilot wave” allows particles to have well-defined positions and velocities): 2
(e) None of the above/undecided: 50

The reader is warned of rampant linguistic confusion in this area. It is not uncommon that two physicists who say that they subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation find themselves disagreeing about what they mean by this. Similarly, some view the “consistent histories”
interpretation (in which the fundamental objects are consistent sets of classical histories) as a fundamentally random theory where God plays dice (as in the recent Physics Today article by Omn`es & Griffith), whereas others view it more as a way of identifing what is classical within the deterministic “many worlds” context. Such issues undoubtedly contributed to the large “undecided” vote on the last question."

--------------

The reason many are going into Many Worlds camp is because of the following. Quoting again from the url:


"The simple double slit interference experiment, hailed by Feynman as the mother of all quantum effects, was successfully repeated for ever larger objects: atoms, small molecules and most recently a carbon-60 Buckey Ball”. After this last feat, Anton Zeilinger’s group in Vienna has even started discussing doing it with a virus. If we imagine, as a Gedanken experiment, that this virus has some primitive kind of consciousness, then the many worlds/many minds interpretation seems unavoidable, as has been emphasized by Dieter Zeh. An extrapolation to superpositions involving other sentient beings such as humans would
then be merely a quantitative rather than a qualitative one."
 
Last edited:
  • #93
Alfrez said:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0101/0101077v1.pdf
quoting

"Which interpretation of quantum mechanics is closest to your own?
(a) Copenhagen or consistent histories (including postulate of explicit collapse): 4
(b) Modified dynamics (Schroedinger equation modified to give explicit collapse): 4
(c) Many worlds/consistent histories (no collapse): 30
(d) Bohm (an ontological interpretation where an auxiliary “pilot wave” allows particles to have well-defined positions and velocities): 2
(e) None of the above/undecided: 50

This is a very uninformative questionnaire.
The dominant statistical interpretation is not even mentioned (and might figure under either (c) or (e)).
The consistent history interpretation has nothing to do with Everett's MWI, but both are classified together in the single choice (c).
No collapse does not imply either of many worlds or consistent histories, but this seems to be suggested by the choices.

In particular, this gives an upper bound on 30% on supporters of MWI in the particular sample taken, while the only deducible lower bound is 0%.
 

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