Does electron beam in empty space generate magnetic fields?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around whether an electron beam in empty space generates magnetic fields similar to those produced by current in a conductor. Participants explore the implications of this phenomenon, particularly regarding the interaction between two parallel electron beams and the forces acting between them.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that an electron beam does generate magnetic fields in empty space, akin to current in a conductor.
  • There is uncertainty regarding whether two parallel electron beams would attract or repel each other, with some suggesting that the interaction is complex due to both magnetic and electrostatic forces.
  • One participant notes that while magnetic forces may attract, the electrostatic Coulomb force between the electron streams is repulsive, complicating the overall interaction.
  • Another participant references Lenz's Law, indicating that current-carrying wires attract each other due to relativistic effects, but questions whether this applies to electron beams, suggesting that they would repel each other instead.
  • A later reply discusses the Lorentz force in the context of current-carrying wires, providing a mathematical framework for understanding the forces involved.
  • One participant introduces the idea that a trace of gas in the tube could affect the behavior of the electron beam by introducing positive ions, which may influence focusing.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that electron beams generate magnetic fields, but there is no consensus on the nature of the interaction between two parallel electron beams, with competing views on whether they attract or repel each other.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the behavior of electron beams and the forces at play, but these assumptions are not universally accepted or resolved. The mathematical treatment of forces is presented without consensus on its applicability to the specific case of electron beams.

avicenna
Messages
96
Reaction score
8
Does electron beam in empty space generate magnetic fields around them just as with current in conductor.

If yes, then is it experimentally proven that two parallel electron beam would attract each other.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Yes to the first one.
How do you come to expect attraction in your second question?

##\ ##
 
Yes to the first one from me too. But for the second one , it isn't so simple if they attract or repel each other because yes there is one component of the total force , the magnetic force (call it laplace or lorentz force) that is attractive, but there is also the electrostatic coulomb force between the electrons streams that is repulsive.

Between conductors the repulsive force between the electrons streams is neutralized by the attractive force of the positive ions, or in simple word the conductors are electrically neutral, so there is no repulsive coulomb force. and all that remains is the attractive magnetic force.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
He's referring to Lenz's Law, where to wires with current in the same direction will attract one another. This is due to a relativistic effect. Due to their motion the electrons see more protons in the other wire than electrons. This of course does not occur with the two electron beams, which would repel one another.
 
Hornbein said:
He's referring to Lenz's Law, where to wires with current in the same direction will attract one another.
How is this illustrative of Lenz's Law??
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: nasu, tech99 and Delta2
hutchphd said:
How is this illustrative of Lenz's Law??
Oops it isn't. Shows how much I know. The attraction between two wires appears to have no particular name.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71, Delta2 and hutchphd
I believe that a trace of gas in the tube causes the beam to focus itself, presumably due to the introduction of positive ions.
 
Hornbein said:
Oops it isn't. Shows how much I know. The attraction between two wires appears to have no particular name.
It's the (magnetic) Lorentz force on the electrons in one wire moving in the magnetic field of the other wire.

Take wire 1 as fixed along the ##z##-axis of our Cartesian coordinate system. Make it, for simplicitly, "infinitesimally thin". The current density then is
$$\vec{j}_1(\vec{r})=I_1 \delta(x) \delta(y) \vec{e}_z.$$
For symmetry reasons the magnetic field is given (in polar coordinates ##(R,\varphi,z)##) by
$$\vec{B}(\vec{r})=B(R) \vec{e}_{\varphi}.$$
Using Ampere's Law with a circle around the ##z##-axis, you get
$$2 \pi R B(R)=\mu_0 I_1 \Rightarrow \; B(R)=\frac{\mu_0 I_1}{2 \pi R} \vec{e}_{\varphi}.$$
Now take another infinitely thin wire parallel to the first one given by ##x=d, \quad y=0, \quad z \in \mathbb{R}##. Then
$$\vec{j}_2=I_2 \delta(x-d) \delta(y) \vec{e}_z.$$
Then the force on a piece of length ##L## is
$$\vec{F} = \int_{\mathbb{R}} \mathrm{d} x \int_{\mathbb{R}} \mathrm{d} y \int_0^L \mathrm{d} z \vec{j}_2(\vec{r}) \times \vec{B}(\vec{r}) = \frac{\mu_0 I_1 I_2 L}{2 \pi d} \vec{e}_z \times \vec{e}_y=-\frac{\mu_0 I_1 I_2}{2 \pi d} \vec{e}_x.$$
This means that for ##I_1 I_2>0## (i.e., both current densities in the same direction) the wires are attracted, otherwise repelled.

There is no electric force, because both wires can be considered (for all practical purposes) as uncharged.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Delta2

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
5K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K