I Does the Photon Play a Crucial Role in Quantum Mechanics?

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The photon is essential in quantum mechanics as it serves as the quantum of the electromagnetic field and mediates electromagnetic interactions. Experimental evidence for its existence is clear, as photons are detected as discrete particles when light is observed. While some discussions question the necessity of photons, particularly in hypothetical scenarios involving single particles, the consensus is that photons are integral to quantum electrodynamics (QED) and cannot be dismissed as mere bookkeeping tools. They ensure causality and locality in interactions, which are crucial for understanding phenomena like fluorescence and the photoelectric effect. Overall, photons are recognized as real particles that play a fundamental role in the framework of quantum theory.
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I am wondering why the photon is necessary at all. Is there experimental evidence of its existence? My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance. So if this is true why do we need it at all? Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?
I am wondering why the photon is necessary at all. Is there experimental evidence of its existence? My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance. So if this is true why do we need it at all? Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?
 
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It propagates with a final speed, and it transfers energy and momentum.
 
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neobaud said:
Is there experimental evidence of its existence?
Sure: the fact that whenever you detect sufficiently faint light, you detect it as discrete particles.

neobaud said:
My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance.
Your understanding is wrong. A correct statement is that for light, the concept of "proper time" (which is what your "experienced time" corresponds to) is not well-defined. But that does not mean that light does not exist.

neobaud said:
Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?
No. We use it because it is a necessary part of the quantum theory of light, because of the experimental results described above.
 
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neobaud said:
TL;DR Summary: I am wondering why the photon is necessary at all. Is there experimental evidence of its existence? My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance. So if this is true why do we need it at all? Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?

I am wondering why the photon is necessary at all. Is there experimental evidence of its existence? My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance. So if this is true why do we need it at all? Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?
The photon is the quantum of the electromagnetic field. In that sense, it is a particle in the standard model like any other.
 
PeterDonis said:
Sure: the fact that whenever you detect sufficiently faint light, you detect it as discrete particles.Your understanding is wrong. A correct statement is that for light, the concept of "proper time" (which is what your "experienced time" corresponds to) is not well-defined. But that does not mean that light does not exist.No. We use it because it is a necessary part of the quantum theory of light, because of the experimental results described above.
I don't think this is an argument in favor of photons existing is it? You could restate "discrete particles" as "discrete interactions" right? Why do you need the photon?
 
Maybe I should put it like this. If there was only one electron, would there still be photons? If so how do you prove this?
 
neobaud said:
Maybe I should put it like this. If there was only one electron, would there still be photons? If so how do you prove this?
There isn't only one electron. The question is immaterial.
 
neobaud said:
TL;DR Summary: I am wondering why the photon is necessary at all. Is there experimental evidence of its existence? My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance. So if this is true why do we need it at all? Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?

I am wondering why the photon is necessary at all. Is there experimental evidence of its existence? My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance. So if this is true why do we need it at all? Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?
In their article “The concept of the photon - revisited”, Ashok Muthukishnan, Marlan O. Scully and M. Suhail Zubairy remark:

In the final portions of the article, we return to the basic questions concerning the nature of light in the context of the wave-particle debate: What is a photon and where is it? To the first question, we answer in the words of Roy Glauber:

"A photon is what a photodetector detects."

To the second question (on the locality of the photon), the answer becomes: “A photon is where the photodetector detects it.


(from the book "The Nature of Light: What is a Photon?", edited by Chandra Roychoudhuri, A.F. Kracklauer, Kathy Creath, CRC Press)
 
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PeroK said:
There isn't only one electron. The question is immaterial.
It's a hypothetical. I am trying to illustrate that it takes more than one particle to make a photon necessary (or at least it seems to me.)
 
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neobaud said:
You could restate "discrete particles" as "discrete interactions" right? Why do you need the photon?
A “particle” is a quantized excitation of a quantum field, and that’s what gives rise to the discrete interactions.

The photon naturally appears in quantum electrodynamics. So either we have photons or there’s some alternative to QED - and no one has ever found any such thing.
 
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  • #12
neobaud said:
It's a hypothetical. I am trying to illustrate that it takes more than one particle to make a photon necessary (or at least it seems to me.)
It's not clear to me what your objection is. The photon is part of Quantum Theory. It's also the most easily detectable particle, as we see by light (EM radiation). Whereas, we don't see by electrons; or neutrinos- which are extremely hard to derect.

So, you are able to read this thanks to the photon!
 
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  • #13
neobaud said:
You could restate "discrete particles" as "discrete interactions" right?
So what? The point is that the classical theory of electromagnetism does not predict "discrete interactions". Only the quantum theory of electromagnetism does. "Photon" is simply the name we give to the distinct features of the quantum theory of electromagnetism that lead to that prediction.
 
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  • #14
neobaud said:
it takes more than one particle to make a photon necessary (or at least it seems to me.)
Again, so what? It takes more than one particle to make any kind of useful experimental equipment. So it's pointless to ask what things would be like if there were only one particle, since we can't make measurements with just one particle anyway.
 
  • #15
neobaud said:
TL;DR Summary: I am wondering why the photon is necessary at all. Is there experimental evidence of its existence? My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance. So if this is true why do we need it at all? Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?

I am wondering why the photon is necessary at all. Is there experimental evidence of its existence? My understanding is that it experiences no time or distance. So if this is true why do we need it at all? Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?
You could say the same of any gauge boson, or any particle at all, in fact. How far into Physics courses have you gotten to? Do you know anything about the theory of why we propose that photons are necessary?

-Dan
 
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  • #16
PeterDonis said:
Again, so what? It takes more than one particle to make any kind of useful experimental equipment. So it's pointless to ask what things would be like if there were only one particle, since we can't make measurements with just one particle anyway.
"So what?"

It is just interesting to me. I have always thought of light and photons as being "real" particles. But it is hard for me to get around the fact that you could also think of them as a symbol for the interaction. Something that makes the resulting interaction easier to calculate. They ensure that causality and locality are maintained but are they more than handy bookkeeping tool?
 
  • #17
neobaud said:
"So what?"

It is just interesting to me. I have always thought of light and photons as being "real" particles. But it is hard for me to get around the fact that you could also think of them as a symbol for the interaction. Something that makes the resulting interaction easier to calculate. They ensure that causality and locality are maintained but are they more than handy bookkeeping tool?
Those are virtual photons. That's not the same thing as "real" photons.
 
  • #18
topsquark said:
You could say the same of any gauge boson, or any particle at all, in fact. How far into Physics courses have you gotten to? Do you know anything about the theory of why we propose that photons are necessary?

-Dan
I am not a Physicist that is why I am asking on this forum. I took physics 1,2,3 in college.

The way I understand it they are needed to track the path of interactions and maintain causality/locality.

Please enlighten me.
 
  • #19
I think you need to create a set of characteristics that define, for you, a "real" particle. Otherwise this will not likely be a fruitful interaction.
 
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  • #20
neobaud said:
I have always thought of light and photons as being "real" particles.
Photons that are detected in experiments are real particles.

neobaud said:
it is hard for me to get around the fact that you could also think of them as a symbol for the interaction.
Photons that are detected in experiments aren't a "symbol" for anything. They're real particles.

If you want to understand how quantum field theory uses gauge bosons to model interactions, and the limitations of the "virtual particle" model that you have implicitly referred to several times, you could start by reading these Insights articles:

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/newideaofquantumfieldtheory-interactingquantumfields/

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/physics-virtual-particles/

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/misconceptions-virtual-particles/

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/what-are-virtual-particles-intro/
 
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  • #21
neobaud said:
It's a hypothetical. I am trying to illustrate that it takes more than one particle to make a photon necessary (or at least it seems to me.)
I'm not sure what you are saying, but if you are implying there has to be an existing corresponding particle (or particle pair?) for a photon to exist, then no:

See e.g. pair annihilation (HyperPhysics); when an electron (matter) and a positron (antimatter) annihilates, they get destroyed and two photons are emitted.
 
  • #22
It would be an interesting exercise for the OP to describe how interactions would work without photons.

When a star emits light that reaches my eye, or when a photoreceptor fires from UV exposure, how would they explain it? They cannot simply interact, since they are millions of miles apart.How would they explain fluorescence? Or the photo electric effect?
 
  • #23
DaveC426913 said:
When a star emits light that reaches my eye, or when a photoreceptor fires from UV exposure, how would they explain it? They cannot simply interact, since they are millions of miles apart.

How would they explain fluorescence? Or the photo electric effect?
All of the things you describe are examples of real photons being detected. By "interactions" the OP appears to be referring to things like a static electric field, where there are no photons detected, but the presence of the field is shown by observing its effects on the motion of charged objects. QFT, at least in the perturbation theory approximation, deals with such phenomena using virtual photons. (And yes, this is a very narrow, arguably too narrow, definition of what an "interaction" is.)
 
  • #24
neobaud said:
I have always thought of light and photons as being "real" particles.
It is possible that you are thinking of the classical "particle" (that is, a little tiny ball) but what we are talking about here is not a particle in that sense. It is a quantum object, which means that it is an aspect of something that, if measured for particle characteristics, shows particle characteristics but that if measured for wave characteristics, shows wave characteristics.
 
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  • #25
The problem with "photons" is that it's explained almost always wrong in popular-science books as being a localized massless particle, and even many introductory QM1 textbooks use this naive-photon pucture of "old quantum theory".

The only consistent description, however, is in terms of relativistic QFT, and there it turns out that photons are not localizable as massive particles are (although in the relativistic context with less accuracy than within non-relatistic QM). What's localized is the photon detector, and all you know, given the state of the em. field, is the detection probability for photons at the position of the detector. The probability distribution is given by the energy density's expectation value of the em. field in the given state.

The next point is that in many cases also the semiclassical approximation is good enough, i.e., you treat only the charged particles quantum-mechanically but keep the em. field classically. That explains the photoelectric effect as well as Compton scattering in leading-order perturbation theory accurately.

The quantization of the em. field and thus photons in the proper, modern sense becomes necessary as soon as quantum fluctuations become relevant effects. The most simple example is the first-principle explanation for spontaneous emission. Another example is the HOM effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong–Ou–Mandel_effect

Finally classical em. fields are quantum mechanically described by coherent states of high intensity.

Dimmed down laser light is not a proper single-photon source but a coherent state of low intensity, i.e., it's most probable to detect no em. field at all or a single photon, but with some probability you'll also detect two or more photons. The photon number of a coherent state is Posson distributed.
 
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  • #26
neobaud said:
Why not just say that a particle here interacts with a particle there. Do we use the Photon to just keep things local?
Even classically, we talk about the electromagnetic field instead of saying that a particle here interacts with a particle there. So the question should rather be whether we favor photons over configurations of an electromagnetic field to just keep things local.

I read in "Do We Really Understand Quantum Mechanics?" by Franck Laloë that a version of Bohmian mechanics using field configuration trajectories for the electromagnetic field and particle trajectories for Fermions (with stochastic creation and annihilation events) works actually quite well. One of the main drawbacks of Bohmian mechanics (including this version) is its non-locality, so the answer to the adjusted question about keeping things local could actually be yes, in a certain sense.
 
  • #27
gentzen said:
the question should rather be whether we favor photons over configurations of an electromagnetic field to just keep things local
"Photons" are "configurations of an electromagnetic field" as far as QFT is concerned; they're just different names for the same thing. And QFT is "local" in the sense that measurements at spacelike separated events always commute; that's true whether you use the word "photon" to describe some QFT configurations or not.
 
  • #28
neobaud said:
You could restate "discrete particles" as "discrete interactions" right? Why do you need the photon?
We could name them giraffes instead of photons. But that name was already taken.

As a famous physicist once asked "What's in a name?"
 
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  • #29
Vanadium 50 said:
As a famous physicist once asked "What's in a name?"
I've never heard of this. What was this person's name? :kiss:

-Dan
 
  • #30
PeterDonis said:
"Photons" are "configurations of an electromagnetic field" as far as QFT is concerned; they're just different names for the same thing.
Is this a special property of "photons"? Or are all bosons "configurations of some suitable field"? And what about fermions?

At least for Bohmian mechanics, using field configuration trajectories for fermions apparently doesn't work well:
Franck Laloë said:
Similar methods may be applied to other bosonic fields. ... Introducing Bohmian variables for fields associated with anticommuting operators is more complicated than for bosons ... one then obtains a description of reality where bosons and fermions are treated in a different way, the former having Bohmian field variables and the latter only position variables
 

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